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Political Betting Thread

Kyle Kulisnki today: "I think the downfall of Mayor Pete has possibly just begun."

waiguoren response: Sorry Kyle, you're wrong.

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Nate Silver is now tweeting early state primary polling data which he has "adjusted for national trends". I cannot fathom any good reason to do this. If anything, Silver should do the opposite: adjust national numbers for early state data.

The effect is to make Biden to look better than he is actually polling in IA/NH. I read Silver's tweets daily and I've never seen him write anything negative about Biden. I think I know who he supports.
 
My views are diverging from yours.

First of all, IA/NH are looking very bad for Biden. No one has ever placed outside the top three in both and gone on to win the nomination. If Buttigieg dominates in both states I think the race is over. Biden knows this so that's why he's on his "No Malarkey!" bus tour through rural Iowa trying to put a higher floor on his support.

I believe that most black voters just aren't paying attention yet. The few people who are paying a lot of attention are mostly white and are either "progressive" activist types or college-graduate whites. Sanders appeals to the former and Buttigieg appeals to the latter. (Obviously there is some overlap).

"The Buttigieg is weak with blacks" argument will die out soon. Today's SC poll has Buttigieg up to 10% in SC, tied with Warren. That's probably white people for the most part, but black people will come around too.

Finally, I disagree that someone needs to attack Biden at the debate. The key is to let Biden fade into oblivion on the debate stage while offering a superior alternative. Sanders hasn't done this because many many Democrats have decided he is unlikely to beat Trump. MSM has now tarred Warren with that same "too left" label and she has lost the "progressive" vote---double whammy. Buttigieg lies in wait. He just has to keep playing the game as he has been. Only concern here is Bloomberg's ridiculous buying power.

Biden might not even place outside the top 3 in IA/NH. He's not totally out of the race in those states. But I don't like looking at single historical predictors in elections when there may be others that can supersede it. The fact that Buttigieg is barely in the race in most states outside of IA and NH seems more important to me, and I'd bet historical data is against Buttigieg there in terms of candidates entering the race with that kind of deficit. Buttigieg's campaign strategy is just based on momentum by investing everything in those first two states, and it's extremely possible that he doesn't win either of them. If he wins 1 or both, it doesn't automatically create double-digit swings in other states where he's significantly behind.

You can believe that black voters aren't paying attention yet, but again, Buttigieg is polling behind Delaney with them lol. I'm pretty sure Buttigieg has had more press coverage than Delaney. He consistently polls unfavorably compared to almost everyone else with that demo. "Buttigieg is weak with blacks" may grow even stronger as more attention is given to the racial issues in South Bend under his mayorship. The black community there aren't very big fans of his in general. Even when he put out his racial justice platform, it backfired spectacularly when he included endorsements from black leaders who came out and said they never endorsed him. It's hard to see what paths he can take to grow their support while carrying the baggage that he has.

I also don't think black voters' support of Biden should be confused with them just loving moderate platforms, and we can't assume they would support another moderate if Biden slips. Biden's relationship with Obama goes a long way.
 
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Biden might not even place outside the top 3 in IA/NH. He's not totally out of the race in those states. But I don't like looking at single historical predictors in elections when there may be others that can supersede it.
Yes, it's possible Biden will place in the top three in one or both of IA/NH. I'd be willing to bet he will not finish above 3rd in either one.

I think the trend over time will be for "momentum" to matter more than in the past. That's because primaries are becoming more nationalized and regional differences are smaller than in the past, while herd behavior is an essential feature of voter psychology.

I'm not looking at a "single historical predictor". I think Buttigieg is articulate, has "the look", has a well-defined "lane", and can appeal to all segments of the party except the Sanders wing. This is all the stuff I've been writing here since May. I agree with you that history is only to be used for reference, not as a guide.

The fact that Buttigieg is barely in the race in most states outside of IA and NH
I don't think this is reasonable. Only three states are well-polled right now and Buttigieg is leading in two of them. In the third, Buttigieg tied Warren today at 10%, putting him in 3rd.

Buttigieg's campaign strategy is just based on momentum by investing everything in those first two states, and it's extremely possible that he doesn't win either of them.
I don't agree with this either. Buttigieg has been spending a lot of time in SC recently meeting with blacks and Latinos.

If he wins 1 or both, it doesn't automatically create double-digit swings in other states where he's significantly behind.

If he wins both comfortably, I'll bet it makes a double-digit swing in his national numbers. That's what happened in the 2008 primary. In a race with such a weak front-runner, a ~15% swing will probably be enough to hand him the nomination.

You can believe that black voters aren't paying attention yet, but again, Buttigieg is polling behind Delaney with them lol.

First of all, that's false under most interpretations but the statement is sufficiently vague that you might find some poll somewhere that makes it true.

Second of all, I think if you pick out a recent national poll at random with crosstabs you will find that a huge percentage of black respondent don't even know who Buttigieg is. Here's a link to the most recent Economist/YouGov poll of 1500 US adult citizens. On page 63 you will find that 48% of black respondents don't have an opinion of Buttigieg. The corresponding number for Biden is 18%.

"Buttigieg is weak with blacks" may grow even stronger as more attention is given to the racial issues in South Bend under his mayorship.
I seriously doubt this and am willing to bet on it.

The black community there aren't very big fans of his in general.
Any decent-quality polling to back this up or just guessing?

Even when he put out his racial justice platform, it backfired spectacularly when he included endorsements from black leaders who came out and said they never endorsed him.
Yes, he should have been more careful there. Review everything that goes out in your name instead of letting contractors publish in your name.

I also don't think black voters' support of Biden should be confused with them just loving moderate platforms, and we can't assume they would support another moderate if Biden slips. Biden's relationship with Obama goes a long way.
Agree with the first two statements, but again I think black support for Biden is largely a name recognition and familiarity thing at this stage.
 
Saw that earlier but I have never heard of "Firehouse strategies" and suspect it's not a high-quality polling outlet.

I'm somewhat familiar with them, I looked into them earlier this year when they suddenly showed up in polling. They're led by republican strategists, and they've consistently had some wildly different polling numbers when compared to everyone else, so this is nothing new. 538 rates them a C/D. Afaik they've only been active in 2020 polling, so there's no results-based reference point for them so far.
 
and they've consistently had some wildly different polling numbers when compared to everyone else

Really? They seem to be pretty consistent with others. Their sample size and demographic mix seem pretty conventional too.

You should never compare polls from different outlets as they use different methodologies.

That doesnt make any sense. You should disregard bad polling, but the only way to increase confidence in polling results is by aggregating, it's what 538 and rcp do.

The real message in the firehouse poll is the swing in favour of trump over the course of the impeachment process, even if you think the headline numbers are skewed.
 
I'm not looking at a "single historical predictor". I think Buttigieg is articulate, has "the look", has a well-defined "lane", and can appeal to all segments of the party except the Sanders wing. This is all the stuff I've been writing here since May. I agree with you that history is only to be used for reference, not as a guide.

I'm just referring to "single predictor" as in things like Iowa/NH equating to a primary win, when winners there typically have greater national support, which is probably more important in winning the rest of the states. There's a lot of talk about the state of the economy resulting in a Trump 2020 win, because that's been a historical predictor too. But approval rating has shown to be a more predictive metric that's more easily quantified and is naturally partially reactive to the state of the economy, and no incumbent has been re-elected with sub-45 approval in their election year.

I don't think this is reasonable. Only three states are well-polled right now and Buttigieg is leading in two of them. In the third, Buttigieg tied Warren today at 10%, putting him in 3rd.

I don't know which 3rd state you're referring to, but Buttigieg averages -30 and -20 to the frontrunner in SC and NV, respectively. I'd consider national polling to be more well-polled than any single state, and Buttigieg is still in a solid 4th with single digits. That gives a good picture of where he sits in states outside of IA/NH.

edit: I realized you were referring to the most recent SC poll. But being tied for 3rd there means pretty little when Biden has such a big lead in that state.

If he wins both comfortably, I'll bet it makes a double-digit swing in his national numbers. That's what happened in the 2008 primary. In a race with such a weak front-runner, a ~15% swing will probably be enough to hand him the nomination.

Obama was comparatively polling much closer with Hillary nationally in 2008 polling, even if he might've entered the voting as an underdog. And that primary was still a battle to the end, with Hillary still winning states despite being overtaken in polling. Obama entered Iowa around -8 (nationally) to Hillary in the previous month, while Buttigieg sits at -20 to Biden. This isn't a race between Buttigieg and Biden either. Sanders and Warren both have good shots in IA, NH, and NV while still sitting strongly ahead of Buttigieg nationally. I also want to point out that Buttigieg's RCP lead in NH comes from a single poll that strangely had Sanders 10+ points behind every other poll and gave Buttigieg and Klobuchar their best numbers there. Sanders is ahead in the 2 polls conducted since then.

First of all, that's false under most interpretations but the statement is sufficiently vague that you might find some poll somewhere that makes it true.

Second of all, I think if you pick out a recent national poll at random with crosstabs you will find that a huge percentage of black respondent don't even know who Buttigieg is. Here's a link to the most recent Economist/YouGov poll of 1500 US adult citizens. On page 63 you will find that 48% of black respondents don't have an opinion of Buttigieg. The corresponding number for Biden is 18%.


I seriously doubt this and am willing to bet on it.


Any decent-quality polling to back this up or just guessing?

I was referring to the most recent YouGov poll in SC, where Delaney was beating Buttigieg among black voters. That doesn't just seem like a name recognition problem.

Buttigieg's racial issue in South Bend has been a developing story for a few months now, but hasn't been given much attention by MSM outlets. The more he stays in this newfound spotlight, the more it'll eventually have to be talked about.

I don't know of specific data from black people in South Bend, but he's had to deal with plenty of protests and activism from the black community there. Pretty much every story I've seen points to it being a known issue in that city. South Bend's senior black city councilman recently even refused to endorse Buttigieg, endorsing Biden instead, citing Buttigieg's issues with the black community there and the difficulty in redeeming himself among them. These things aren't going to be ignored. Rising poll numbers means nonstop oppo
 
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538 rates them a C/D. Afaik they've only been active in 2020 polling, so there's no results-based reference point for them so far

Just looked into this a ittle more as it didnt make sense that they have a rating but no results to use as a reference. Firehouse partners with optimus who, according to their website, have been active since 2013.

According to 538 they predict correctly 87% of the time in 15 polls, which is hw they get their c/d rating.

You can note that 538 does not reject them as a pollster, though 15 polls doesnt look like a huge dataset.
 
Really? They seem to be pretty consistent with others. Their sample size and demographic mix seem pretty conventional too.

I haven't compared their exact methodology with everyone else, but they've shown things like 8-10 point swings compared to reputable polling performed before and after them. When I see things like that, I keep it in mind but I don't weight it the same as other data.
 
More evidence that the impeachment coup is backfiring.

Since the start of impeachment Trump doing better in michigan, pennsylvania and wisconsin.

He now beats all the top 5 dnc candidates easily.

https://firehousestrategies.com/analysis/december_2019_battleground_survey/

Yep, as I said before, Trump wanted the Democrats to impeach them because there’s nothing there and the results will be the same as when the Republicans did it to Clinton. He’s been pushing them to do it for the last 3 years starting with the non release of his tax returns.
 
I dont think this will hurt him, in fact i think it is designed to assuage fears about his age. As it assures voters that in 4 years they can choose someone else. The dnc wont be unhappy about it either. I think biden will magoo it into the nomination and then lose in a historic blowout.
I think it hurts him on net, but maybe not enough to do serious damage.
 
I think it hurts him on net, but maybe not enough to do serious damage.

I would disagree at this point. But we will see. It is the first sign of strategic thinking i have seen in this primary from an establishment dem candidate outside buttigieg.

I've lost faith in buttigieg though. He panders too much, also his age, lack of experience, and bloomberg's ego trip will block him from getting the nomination. Tbh i think biden's 1 term announcement is designed precisely to counter buttigieg's rise and progressive bellyaching. Nominally, biden matches up with trump the best in swing states, so dnc voters will be happy to throw him against trump, and the various factions get another bite at the cherry in 4 years.

His 1 term announcement makes it more of a win-win scenario for all stakeholders.
 
I would disagree at this point. But we will see. It is the first sign of strategic thinking i have seen in this primary from an establishment dem candidate outside buttigieg.

I've lost faith in buttigieg though. He panders too much, also his age, lack of experience, and bloomberg's ego trip will block him from getting the nomination. Tbh i think biden's 1 term announcement is designed precisely to counter buttigieg's rise and progressive bellyaching. Nominally, biden matches up with trump the best in swing states, so dnc voters will be happy to throw him against trump, and the various factions get another bite at the cherry in 4 years.

His 1 term announcement makes it more of a win-win scenario for all stakeholders.
Thanks for spelling out your thinking. Can't respond in full but basically I think a weak front-runner should not be making overt moves that signal that he's weak (being unable to last two terms is a sign of weakness). It's also bad electoral strategy.
 
Sorry, this is not betting related, but I found it so funny. Don Lemon just does not understand that large sections of the population do not take the legacy media or the dnc seriously anymore.
 
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