Police officers causing death by chokeholds

[bnosam]

Damn I have not been here in over a year and look at the first thread I see. Oh well the facts are most, not all, people who fight with the cops are on drugs. When the carotid hold is applied the added pressure can cause cardiac arrest on a person who is already on a verge of having problems due to the drug use. If people rolling in gyms were high on cocain or other drugs and out of shape you may have more deaths in the gym.

Also there should be more training for law enforcement when it comes to use of force. just my two cents worth.

I was always under the impression police had more training than they did. Then I found out how much they did and I was horribly surprised. It's unfortunate.

 

[Kozbot]

Damn I have not been here in over a year and look at the first thread I see. Oh well the facts are most, not all, people who fight with the cops are on drugs. When the carotid hold is applied the added pressure can cause cardiac arrest on a person who is already on a verge of having problems due to the drug use. If people rolling in gyms were high on cocain or other drugs and out of shape you may have more deaths in the gym.

Also there should be more training for law enforcement when it comes to use of force. just my two cents worth.

lol @ rolling on cocaine

If somebody was rolling on cocaine they would probably be an unstoppable killing machine

 

[teamcarvalho]

lol @ rolling on cocaine

If somebody was rolling on cocaine they would probably be an unstoppable killing machine

One time me and and another deputy were fighting with a suspect really high on Methamphetamine.....and for a tweaker he was really big. It took us twenty minutes to cuff him and get him in the car. I had put him out with a Carotid restraint and as soon as I released the hold he popped right up. My partner struck him several times with a baton and it had no effect...I told him to put the damn thing away because it was doing no good.

After that we had to take him to the hospital and it took us and three other people to get him out of the car. I have never fought anybody like that before.:icon_cry2....those were good time now that I think about it.:icon_lol:

 

[Deleted member 56619]

So it's the police officer's fault that a suspect he arrested choked himself to death on a bag of drugs? Unreal...

No. If you read what I wrote, I OBVIOUSLY stated the guy should not have done what he did. However, had the cop followed procedure, and been smart enough to check the guys airway, he could have easily saved the mans life. Of course the guy fucked up by swallowing the drugs, I wrote that write in my essay there. Both the guy and the cop are idiots.

Quoted since you missed it the first time:

Had he simply followed procedure the guy would have lived. Obviously the guy shouldn't have did what he did, but still the cop could have saved his life very easily.

 

[Deleted member 56619]

So you are saying that these bad cops you know would have been better cops if they had a college degree. Having a degree is not going to weed out bad people.....that is why they are supposed go through a thorough back ground check and psychological test even before going to an academy.

Being a Cop is not something anybody can do.....it is a stressful job and you see shit that most people could not deal with. Plus you have to deal with idiots that want to fight you because you have to arrest them because they committed a crime and they feel they should not have go to jail for it.

You don't need a college degree to write police reports or tickets any high school kid can do them. What you do need is common sense and a strong will. This job is not for anyone. I have seen people quit after their second day on the job because they got scared of the shit they had seen. I admit there are people that are in law enforcement that don't belong on the job....I have worked with some myself.

However I have worked with some good people that do the job very well and most of them don't have a college degree.

As far as the accidental deaths .....it happens. Shit I know two cops that killed suspects with Tasers. Cops do need more training but Administration rather spend the money on other things. That is why I am in the business of teaching Cops who don't train on a regular basis how to effectively to defend themselves including using the Carotid Restraint technique.

No, I don't think the bad cops I know would have been better cops with a college degree. I have a college degree, and from my experience you don't learn much in college either. The point I was trying to make is that it doesn't take very much time to become an officer and at least around here, there is not much quality control.

The guys I know chose becoming officers over going to college and getting a degree because the barriers to entry were easier, it took much less time, and the starting pay was much better. They did NOT become police officers because they wanted to actually be police and help people, they become cops because it was much easier than other routes of education/careers.

 

[MIDMOBOX]

This question and the responses are very intresting.

I think that in most cases police officers are ill trained to handle the application of force under the conditions which they actaully face. The concept of force on force training has helped with this problem but it isn't common place enough by any stretch. But to replicate the stress of a true physical struggle would cause most departments to cringe. Simply the risk of injury would be enough to turn most away from it.

Some departments have gone as far as totally taking away any sort of vasuclar restraint or "choke" including those which include an arm(think darce in police terms its labeled a uni-lateral vasuclar neck restraint). But in doing so they actually taken away one of the most useful physical control options that exist.

I'm not sure what I think of people refering to every struggle that an officer has being a life or death situation. In many cases the suspect is only attempting to escape or delay the officer's from taking them into custody and launches nothing that could be veiwed as offensive. Not to say that it couldn't turn that way in a second. But assuming the officer is able to control the suspect quickly and effectively it reduces the chances of the situation becoming that.

 

[CrazyJHL]

Fun times. I'll be honest, very often people who become police officers here in California, especially in Norcal where Cody and I reside, do so for the money. Starting pay is often around 60 grand a year, which is considerably more then what other states pay LE. Quite often you hear people say they want to be peace officers merely to drive fast and have a gun, and thankfully they fail to pass the rigorous testing needed to obtain the job.

There are numerous ways to become a Police officer in CA. In Cody's example, the individuals probably went through, or were paid to go through, the local college police academy. In northern CA police departments lack the size to actually maintain their own academy, and allow colleges to educate the officers instead. The training can be completed in 2 ways. One is the standard approach, where you take up to 12 hours of classes a day, including physical conditioning, 5-6 days a week. This generally is done over a 4-6 month period, which does not seem appropriate for the amount of power the individual wields, but is long enough to weed out the "bad seeds." The second approach is training 2-3 days a week, 4 hours a day, for 14 months. This type of training is actually frowned opinion, due to the fact it is not as intense as the one mentioned above. Both have their pros and cons, and both culminate with the same certification.

Now this type of training is not common in the highly populated portions of CA, but that's how it is here in the most northern part.

For the most part, the deaths resulting from these types of chokes are due to numerous factors, not only the officer. Many times the suspect is under the influence of a narcotic, and their body is already weakened by their chosen drug, or they have preexisting health conditions the officer is not aware of. There is the possibility of the crowds turning against them, and interfering, or that the suspect has gone for their weapon (as someone has already stated).

Regarding the whole concept of "Proper procedure". Aside from CPR, where the officer commonly breaks the sternum, ribs, while performing it, local law enforcement does not have the sufficient training to make a difference. Now, in the case of CHP, which is a state wide agency, they are trained in emergency medical treatment due to the fact that they are often the first on scene in locations where paramedics may be quite far away. Also, interesting fact, all 911 calls made by a cell phone in CA are received by CHP, which places even more emphasis on well rounded training.

Now, this post is kind of worthless, due to the fact that many CA agencies have chosen to bane the use of choke holds, due to the possible legal repercussions. There are some agencies that still use them, but for the most part it's a "only if you have exhausted all other options may you do this, but remember if you do, and something bad happens, it's your #*& that will be in the media crosshairs."

In my personal opinion, as someone with a college degree in criminal justice (working on my second degree right now), and has been P.O.S.T. certified, choke holds are useful tools when dealing with violent offenders, but I feel the individual should have outside training, or previous experience, on using them. "I learned this at the academy, it must work," does not sit well with the general public here in CA, though we are highly opinionated and only believe in our own points of view....

Now I realize no one will read this, and it only pertains to CA, but yeah...I hope this doesn't confuse anyone, I have no idea why I wrote so much, and...be safe? x_x

 

[Deleted member 56619]

Great info, Crazy. The officers here start at around 60k a year after a 6 month or so academy at Butte Community College. "Quite often you hear people say they want to be peace officers merely to drive fast and have a gun" This is actually pretty mild compared to what I've heard a few of them say as to why they want to become cops. I have yet to hear one say "I want to be a cop so I can help people and make a difference." Generally its "I'll make 60k a year in 6 months and get to beat the crap out of people!"

That was the point I was trying to make. It is scarily easy to become a police officer around here which leads to many people being cops who really should not be. I mean, do you really want the local Burger King manager having the power of a police officer? Because that is actually one person who is now a cop that I know, the old Burger King manager.

I guess I should not have said "proper procedure" because I really don't know what that procedure is. That is just the story I was told. The cop in question is now a security guard at a casino in Reno, so he did get fired.

 

[ironbismark]

lol @ rolling on cocaine

If somebody was rolling on cocaine they would probably be an unstoppable killing machine

before or after the heart attack?

 

[ironbismark]

this is a neat article i found on deaths caused by police restraint


10 training tips for handling "excited delirium"

 

[CrazyJHL]

"I want to be a cop so I can help people and make a difference." Generally its "I'll make 60k a year in 6 months and get to beat the crap out of people!"

I guess I should not have said "proper procedure" because I really don't know what that procedure is. That is just the story I was told. The cop in question is now a security guard at a casino in Reno, so he did get fired.

Fun times. Honestly, when you are in a Administration of Justice or Criminal Justice System class, and you say "I want to help people," the teacher lets you know you are looking at the wrong profession. Honestly, police officers do not help people (at least here in CA, or so we are taught). My first day of class up here when I moved to the area, the teacher looked at us, and said "If you want to help people get the $%*& out of this classroom, and go the fire academy, we don't help people fire fighters do." This quote, which is pretty much exact, came from a retired police officer with 3 college degrees (AA in Administration of Justice, BA in sociology, MA in Public Administration). This is actually the general consensus among the instructors concerning law enforcement, the job is so hard to do, well you can't do it for strangers, you have to do it for yourself and your loved ones. Fire fighters help people, cops merely catch bad guys...and that's if they are lucky.

Regarding the second quoted paragraph, even though I may have skipped over this, even though most officers lack extensive (or even basic) medical knowledge, they are expected to attempt to aid an individual until help arrives. This became a major issue after the LA bank robbery where the suspects out gunned law enforcement, one of the robbers was on the ground, bleeding to death, and a police officer stood over him and watched him die. Some people may not have an issue with that, but when it's video tapped and photographed, and the officer could have placed pressure on the wound to save the suspects life, it means quite a bit in court when you are being sued for wrongful death. My point was mainly that even though you are expected to do something, most officers have no idea how to do anything. Now, recently, I have met a few individuals that started off as an EMT before crossing over to law enforcement, it's a trend that happens to be on the rise, and I believe it will positively influence law enforcement while placing an emphasis on additional training. The only issue is that these individuals spend thousands of dollars on their EMT training, then another 10 grand to go through the Butte academy (estimated, I believe that includes housing) and can not find jobs...the economy is so bad here in CA that only the top 3 cadets are being looked at, and even then they can't find work. I know a few people who even offered to work for free, so that their certification would not expire, and still get turned down. So even though these people graduate from the academy, the chances of them finding jobs before their certification expires (after 3 years I believe here in CA) is slim to none. This is especially disheartening with the knowledge that if you can't find a position within 16 months, your training is considered obsolete, and no one is willing to hire you.

 

[Shemhazai]

Wow, only six months? Police academy here in Norway is three years ...

 

[KJGould]

- Junkies that are high probably asphyxiate on their own vomit which might happen during an altercation.

- There's nothing to say the police have had the proper instruction, and this wouldn't be the first instance of excessive force or police brutality where the cops take things too far.