Pick one fighter from the pre-2005 era to become champ today.
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I love the idea for the thread, and enjoyed reading through everyone's responses
Fedor is probably the only guy I'd favor though, you can make arguments for others, but none that are convincing to me
Fedor is probably the only guy I'd favor though, you can make arguments for others, but none that are convincing to me
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Even Franklin would admit he'd get destroyed by Islam lol
I actually heard him say the other day on that podcast with Rampage that he got out of the sport because guys with wrestling pedigrees like TJ were coming up
He's before my time so maybe I just don't know enough context, but when you look at Shamrock's resume he basically beat Bas Rutten (in a weird decision and lost multiple times to him later) and Tito Ortiz (after getting dominated for four rounds)
He seems super overrated to me
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Aplogies, I didn't feel like going into too much detail when I wrote that as I was tired and just looking to get my two bits in. But since you ask...
I said that GSP would outstrike any Dagestani that's ever competed at WW for a number of reasons, but what I really meant is that he'd outpoint Khabibi and Khabibi Lite (Islam). A case could be made that GSP circa 2004 was too raw and unproven a fighter at this point to make that claim and I can understand that logic as his most notable KO pre-2005 would be Jay Hieron, who was not anywhere near as good a striker as Islam to be sure. The thread title was about who from the pre-2005 era could be a champ today and I got a little sidetracked and started talking about GSP in his final form circa 2008 or so who I truly believe would soundly outstrike the Golden Dagi's. His length is one reason (a BIG reason considering how he used it), his diversity of attacks (head kicks, low kicks, straights, spin kicks, etc), his notable hand and foot speed advantage, and his sheer physicality at 170. The fact that they would be fighting scared after the first couple of take downs were landed would also lead to openings presenting themselves standing. And Islam's head movement and overall defense is pretty meh.
So, to be clear where I stand on this, GSP circa 2004 beats any version of Islam we've seen via a mixture of grappling and striking, I believe that the GSP of that age outpoints Islam soundly on the feet but can understand why some would say GSP hadn't reached the lofty heights he would reach in terms of striking skill and that it would be too early for him, and finally that GSP at his peak unquestionably touches up either of the Golden Dagi's standing... and on the mat. Always happy to discuss this further, of course.
A question for you; why exactly do you think that Islam would be more successful standing against GSP than Koscheck was? While we're at it, do you think Islam is as good a striker as prime Condit and a juicy Hendricks and if so, why?
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I love me some Frank Shamrock but I've seen nothing from him that would suggest he had the TDD to stay off his back (it never really got any better as time went on either) which would be trouble against the top grapplers at 185, the take downs to bring the elite MW's to the ground where I would say his top game would pose the biggest problem in the division, and his striking was just alright. We already got a glimpse of Frank's ceiling in modern MMA when he fought Nick Diaz and Cung Le, who I acknowledge were both on fire at the time and Frank was a largely inactive fighter by that point in his mid-30's.
He had the advantage of being really good, well-rounded, and athletic at a time when that was not the case for about 95% of the fighters and camps involved in NHB.
Yeah, I said NHB and it felt good.
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That doesn't exist
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Kharitonov, Big Nog, Fedor,
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I love GSP, I still have him as the GOAT, and I think in his prime he'd beat Islam
But 2004 GSP got taken down multiple times and subsequently fucking arm barred by Matt Hughes... that isn't something elite guys get caught with
As good as he was because he's a freak talent, GSP was still very, very green in 2004
Current Islam would easily beat him
Dagestanaev
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Welcome back Impregnator
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Fedor is always the correct answer but there were many talented guys from that generation who could be champions today.
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your memory serves you incorrectly
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"Franklin" makes me think you're talking about Rich Franklin, but since you go on to talk about "Shamrock," I'm assuming you're referring to Frank Shamrock. In any event...
...this is confusing me more because I don't know which TJ would have any connection to either a "Franklin" or a "Shamrock"...
...but here you're clearly talking about Frank Shamrock. If you don't mind, I'll try to add some context. First, Frank had zero experience in anything before he ended up in the Lion's Den under Ken Shamrock's tutelage. It speaks to his freak athleticism and his passion for martial arts that he took to it so quickly. He's always been incredibly strong and explosive, and right away he developed fantastic and powerful TDs. He was hitting monster double legs on Bas right from the jump, which makes his career-ending slam on Igor Zinoviev less surprising. He also very quickly developed an excellent submission game and tapped tons of amazing catch wrestlers in Pancrase. Later, once he started training with Maurice Smith and Tsuyoshi Kosaka, he also developed a great guard game and great striking. He wasn't just well-rounded, he was able to do everything - punches, kicks, knees, shots, throws, GNP, submissions from the top, submissions from the bottom, sweeps - at an extremely high level. The version of Frank Shamrock that ran roughshod over the UFC would be competitive against anyone that's ever fought at 185, and even undersized at 200 lbs would give plenty of LHWs fits.
As for the specific fights you mentioned: He beat Bas Rutten in his very first fight, which is an extraordinary accomplishment. And their next two fights were very closely contested and tons of fun. As for Tito, he didn't get "dominated" in any universe. That's the MMA version of Ali/Foreman: Frank was never not in control, and his game plan of making Tito work and out-cardioing him was brilliant and effective.
Frank never bothered with TDD because he didn't need it. If he wanted to take you down, he would. His TDs were incredibly powerful, he'd even get Bas off his feet and throw him around the ring. And if you wanted to take him down, he didn't care because he could either submit you on the ground or sweep and get back up. Per the thread's specifications, if he got 12 weeks to do nothing but focus on TDD, he'd be just fine. His striking was also better than just alright. I'm not saying he'd decimate Anderson Silva, but he was better than just alright.
If you "acknowledge" that then you need to acknowledge that we didn't get a glimpse of Frank's ceiling. We just got to see how he was able to fare at his age and after such a layoff. That wasn't prime Frank any more than the Cro Cop who showed up in the UFC gives us a glimpse of how Cro Cop in his prime would've done against the UFC fighters who beat him. A year or two earlier and things would've looked very different. But then that's why time is such a motherfucker...
True, GSP was green when he lost to Hughes in their first fight, but Hughes was also very good on the ground and that armbar counter to GSP's kimura attempt was high-level BJJ. Even Frank Mir on the commentary was marveling at Hughes' fight IQ and grappling skill.
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The early version of GSP still had all the tools, I can't recall but at that point he already was a black belt in both karate (kyokushin) and BJJ, but his style (what he used to call ape technique lol) was different compared to the one he developed post Serra KO.
This version of GSP (2004) wins standing but Islam has a chance to win on the ground; similar to GSP/Hughes 1, GSP was untouchable on the feet but Hughes was still able to take it to the ground. Now, Islam hasn't looked as unstoppable wrestling wise unlike prime Hughes who was a beast, but he's gotten the job done in the past (Dustin and Volk fights)
Now, final form GSP (2008) means after including Freddie Roach in his corner. At this point GSP was untouchable on the feet save a few moments, like against Condit, and then Hendricks who was juiced yes, almost comical how he was steamrolling everybody before he got a titleshot.
Islam being a counter striker, the closest he's fought to a GSP level opponent is Volk. GSP has all kind of kicks, superman punches and stiff jabs on top of his explosive double leg TD, he's got a lot for Islam to work with, but this GSP is also way more cautious than the original 'Rush'. Islam's main tools here are within the clinch, where he has a good use of the plumb on top of his trips and throws; IF he's able to counter with his usual combinations and clinching like he's done in the past, he should be able to put up a fight. GSP is superior at range and doesn't fight on the inside, Islam needs to wait for exchanges to get it there. It also comes down to how consistently Islam can stand up once he gets taken down by GSP and how many TD attempts he could defend (91% TDD is good, I think only Tsarukyan took him down but if anyone can do it, it would be prime GSP) and using these to initiate a clinch (there's no way he doesn't prepare accordingly).
And as for Condit, he had endless grit, extreme versatility and unique talent to finish fights. Islam isn't throwing flying knees or spinning elbows anytime soon, but he has been able to stand up against technical brawlers before and even beat them (Poirier, Olives and Hooker). And juicy Hendricks would likely make it a worse version of Khabib vs Tibau.
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That was Frank being humble and giving props to other California talent ..Frank Shamrock in his prime was not worried about BW Tj Dillashaw lol
Prime Frank was more then well rounded and was a true tactician of the sport MMA , the first guy to truly mix it all with great physically attributes too...he was fast, agile, fluent...could strike and sub, and didnt tire...
He was absolutely a better striker than Islam...and he wouldnt be freaking out on the ground against Islam ,like most of his opponents do...which leads to mistakes that Islam capitalizes on ...
He should of never been fighting above 170lbs but did and was successful...the fact he beat Tito who was a huge LHW is crazy...
Here he is dispatching an Olympic gold medalist wrestler with ease... he's not going to be worried about going to the ground with Islam ..and this is at 190lbs hes not a small man ....
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My dude big nog beats all these heavyweights. Easily sub all of them.
2005 BJ would easily compete with Topuria and it would be really interesting if the fight hit the mat. Bj with all those sub skills. But I think bj would be a FW and would give volk all he could handle and more.
And of course fedor. One of my favorites of all time. He would rule the HW class with an iron fist. Pride era HW was golden era of HW.
2005 BJ would easily compete with Topuria and it would be really interesting if the fight hit the mat. Bj with all those sub skills. But I think bj would be a FW and would give volk all he could handle and more.
And of course fedor. One of my favorites of all time. He would rule the HW class with an iron fist. Pride era HW was golden era of HW.
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I am assuming that we are not taking people and dropping them straight into the modern mix. I assumed they would also be doing modern training for modern strategy. I did mention he would need to work TDD. If Tito got him down, the Dagis would too.I love me some Frank Shamrock but I've seen nothing from him that would suggest he had the TDD to stay off his back (it never really got any better as time went on either) which would be trouble against the top grapplers at 185, the take downs to bring the elite MW's to the ground where I would say his top game would pose the biggest problem in the division, and his striking was just alright. We already got a glimpse of Frank's ceiling in modern MMA when he fought Nick Diaz and Cung Le, who I acknowledge were both on fire at the time and Frank was a largely inactive fighter by that point in his mid-30's.
He had the advantage of being really good, well-rounded, and athletic at a time when that was not the case for about 95% of the fighters and camps involved in NHB.
Yeah, I said NHB and it felt good.
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The current sport is based on most of these fighters so I would assume so yeah. It would be unfair if everybody has studied the legends but they don't get to study tape from the current champs or get a proper modern training camp with nutrition and weight cutting techniques.
