Pick one fighter from the pre-2005 era to become champ today.

[Paolo Delutis]

I didn't mean he'd literally be scared of TJ himself, just that he acknowledged that level of wrestling was coming into the sport, and that would've been a problem for him

There's no way he was better at anything than Islam, a guy who is just as talented if not more and has had the luxury of training and developing as a fighter in the most ideal way possible since he was a child

The level of overall grappling ability Islam has today, did not exist in Shamrock's era... he can not freak out as much as he wants, Islam could do whatever he wanted to him imo

Arm barring Kevin Jackson is not proof he could hang on the ground with Islam lol

I think your overating the Dagistannis and under playing frank Shamrock




This is him taping Dan fucking Henderson..in a grappling only match..

Frank would have no problem going toe to toe on the ground with islam...hes going to be as strong if not stronger the islam...with proven cardio

Islam's striking is shit if he cant threaten the takedown...shamrock isn't going to fear the takedown and had fast hands

 

[dipstickjimmy]

to be fair though his teeth were dislocated from his jaw...

Yeah I don't have an issue with tapping to strikes. I have an issue with a guy calling others cowardly or at least inferring it and then tapping to strikes himself.

Mir said tapping to strikes wasn't what a real fighter would do. Funny thing is he is never in trouble and aware he is done, he gets KTFO.

 

[m249viking]

This is more an indicator of how trash HW is today than how good Fedor was.

Fedor would have gotten wrecked during the JDS, Cain, Stipe, DC era. Today he'd easily be top 3 if not the champion.

Definitely not wrecked. Prime Fedor was a force of nature. Not disparaging the fighters you mentioned. No one was wrecking Fedor at his peak.

 

[Pierce 34]

I think heavyweight had legitimately better talent back then than it does now. I think 85 and 205 were better too. Maybe not pre ‘05, but definitely 05-15.

Only division gotten better overtime is below 185. BW, FW and LW in recent years were killer rows

 

[dipstickjimmy]

Definitely not wrecked. Prime Fedor was a force of nature. Not disparaging the fighters you mentioned. No one was wrecking Fedor at his peak.

I have to agree. IMO Fedor fought a lot of cans and had some trouble with guys that had a speed advantage on him but Cro Cop, Big Nog, Randleman, Arlovski are all on par with Cain, JDS, Stipe and DC as a level of competition.

 

[JKS]

Very interesting topic here. If I had to pick one fighter?

A few guys came to mind, Fedor obviously, GSP, Rich Franklin at MW who had great cardio, size and defensive wrestling and grappling was an idea. BJ Penn at LW or WW would be very interesting vs Ilia and Islam.

My choice, 2005 Shogun Rua at LHW. He had the complete game to beat Poatan. Great striking, cardio, chin and durability, but he was very aggressive in taking the fight to the ground and using his GNP. And he just entered his prime at that point.

 

[OmegaRugal]

2005 Chuck vs Pereira would be a fight from the Just Bleed Gods...

Chuck I feel was amazing vs Grapplers. He was the best anti grappler striker.

Against other strikers … he was much more vulnerable.

 

[Bullitt68]

Chuck I feel was amazing vs Grapplers. He was the best anti grappler striker.

Against other strikers … he was much more vulnerable.

Not really. He beat Pele, Mezger, Suloev, Vitor, Overeem, and then past his prime still beat Wand. He wasn't "vulnerable" to strikers, he was just bested by Randy's surprise striking attack and Rampage's iron chin and cardio (and then in their second fight his own lack of a chin).

 

[OmegaRugal]

Not really. He beat Pele, Mezger, Suloev, Vitor, Overeem, and then past his prime still beat Wand. He wasn't "vulnerable" to strikers, he was just bested by Randy's surprise striking attack and Rampage's iron chin and cardio (and then in their second fight his own lack of a chin).

Good counter argument. Credit where credit is due.

 

[Roop Holstry]

I haven't followed Pereira but I've seen all of his fights at least once (most of them just once). He also got knocked silly in kickboxing. And much like against Izzy, he had trouble with the big right hand. That's not a good sign when talking about fighting Chuck. It's also just speculation, so it's pointless to argue too strenuously about something that can never be (dis)proven, but I don't think Pereira's half as powerful as you're making him sound. Chuck is the one who had dim mak power. He put Randleman down with a quick little left hook moving away. Rampage couldn't put Randleman out without a massive knee and dozens of follow-up punches. Chuck just needed one awkward moving away left hook to have him circling the drain.

Chuck also staggered Randy with this left hook in their second fight and had Tito reeling in their second fight. And this is to say nothing of the right hand that nearly took Overeem's jaw off and that folded Mezger in half. Pereira's technically sound and patient and accurate and strategic, but Chuck has both the power edge and the chin edge.

We'll obviously never know, but my money would be on Chuck knocking him out in the first or second after eating a few strong punches and taking a handful of low kicks. He'd take some punishment, but he'd be able to take Pereira's best while Pereira wouldn't be able to take Chuck's

Pereira hardly has to touch people sometimes to put them out. Chuck was never on the same level and he’s one of the fighters who helped get me into the sport. No taking away from Chuck but…..

 

[Bullitt68]

Good counter argument. Credit where credit is due.

Chuck was never on the same level

When Pereira completely shuts down a wrestler of Randleman's (or Randy's or Tito's or Babalu's or Monson's) caliber or breaks an opponent's eye socket with a single punch, let me know. Until then, Pereira's got some climbing to do before he's on Chuck's level

 

[Orochimaru 大蛇丸]

I think your overating the Dagistannis and under playing frank Shamrock




This is him taping Dan fucking Henderson..in a grappling only match..

Frank would have no problem going toe to toe on the ground with islam...hes going to be as strong if not stronger the islam...with proven cardio

Islam's striking is shit if he cant threaten the takedown...shamrock isn't going to fear the takedown and had fast hands

This is a really cool video I have never seen, so thanks for the share

But this isn’t as impressive as you think it is, Dan’s BJJ was probably dog shit at this time, and a lot of guys, especially back then were so clueless with leg locks, they’d initially try to power out, and if that didn’t work they’d just tap.

You ever notice how back then you saw a lot more submissions compared to today? Especially subs that seemingly came out of no where?

That’s because the BJJ level was waaaay lower, it was still somewhat of a mystery to guys back then. Today even guys with not great BJJ know enough to stay out of danger.

I don’t care if you’re a current top BJJ guy, you’re not catching a sub from bottom against Islam in MMA, it’ll never happen… especially with a basic armbar from closed guard or a basic heel hook like the examples you have shown.

 

[Orochimaru 大蛇丸]

Igor Zinoviev was a 6'1'' 200-pound striking machine who beat down the bigger Mario Sperry and blitzed the durable Enson Inoue. Frank ended his career in seconds.



Look at the explosiveness, look at the power, look at the technique instantly getting to side mount. He was no joke. He would've eaten Strickland for lunch and I think he'd give Khamzat fits on the ground (similar to what he did to Jeremy Horn, constantly reversing and scrambling and threatening with submissions, Horn would be able to get top position but he was never able to mount any actual offense because Frank was constantly moving) while DDP would probably be his toughest opponent stylistically but even that'd be a hell of a fun battle.

My post above basically applies to this as well, I don’t think you guys appreciate how much grappling has evolved

Nobody is beating Khamzat by throwing up subs from bottom

I respect Jeremy Horn, but cmon man lol Khamzat is light years ahead of him

 

[wildchild88]

I’d put Kevin Randleman in AKA.

 

[Bullitt68]

I don’t think you guys appreciate how much grappling has evolved

I think it's less me not appreciating how much grappling has evolved and more you not appreciating how skilled the legends of the past were. But this is the calibration that's necessary when going across eras: We can't put folks from the old school on too high of a pedestal but we also can't pretend that the passing of time erases the skills that folks from the old school did have.

I respect Jeremy Horn, but cmon man lol Khamzat is light years ahead of him

I didn't say he'd beat him as easy as or easier than he beat Horn, I said he'd give him fits on the ground. With Horn being much bigger than Frank and trying to establish a top game but failing, I think that if he did what he did against Horn, constantly moving and going for sweeps and subs rather than concede the position, he'd give Khamzat trouble. I don't think that's a crazy untenable position. Maybe Khamzat would blanket him more effectively, maybe he'd GNP more effectively, maybe he'd even tap him. I don't think that's crazy or untenable either. The point is we're talking about Frank Shamrock, not Scott Sullivan. I don't think that Brad Sellars or Kyle Macy would do very well in the NBA today, but I do think that Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen would kick some ass.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Not really. He beat Pele, Mezger, Suloev, Vitor, Overeem, and then past his prime still beat Wand. He wasn't "vulnerable" to strikers, he was just bested by Randy's surprise striking attack and Rampage's iron chin and cardio (and then in their second fight his own lack of a chin).

Well, he said he was vulnerable to srikers, and some of the guys you mentioned pretty much did make him very vulernable. I mean Guy Mezger basically 10-8'd him in a 10 minute round before coming out the start of r2 and getting 1 hit ko'd. If Guy was bigger and/or Chuck didn't have such a good chin he would have gotten stopped. Like, a full 10 minutes of Chuck getting blasted in the face and not being able to hit Guy Metzger. The fight is on YouTube.

Overeem hurt Chuck pretty badly too.

If anything, when Chuck fought guys like Overeem, Mezger, and Wanderlei he had to rely on wrestling. He would wrestle strikers and strike wrestlers.

I would definitely say Chuck struggles more against strikers than grapplers.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

I think your overating the Dagistannis and under playing frank Shamrock




This is him taping Dan fucking Henderson..in a grappling only match..

Frank would have no problem going toe to toe on the ground with islam...hes going to be as strong if not stronger the islam...with proven cardio

Islam's striking is shit if he cant threaten the takedown...shamrock isn't going to fear the takedown and had fast hands

Islam's striking definitely isn't shit, and is probably better than his wrestling. Frank is probably more athletic than Islam, but he is not less skilled.

 

[Rampage_Jackson]

I'm just a goober oldhead but I think you could find lots of fighters from that era who could contend in today's MMA landscape

 

[Bullitt68]

Well, he said he was vulnerable to srikers, and some of the guys you mentioned pretty much did make him very vulernable. I mean Guy Mezger basically 10-8'd him in a 10 minute round before coming out the start of r2 and getting 1 hit ko'd. If Guy was bigger and/or Chuck didn't have such a good chin he would have gotten stopped. Like, a full 10 minutes of Chuck getting blasted in the face and not being able to hit Guy Metzger. The fight is on YouTube.

Okay, by your logic here, you should also have no problem with someone saying that Fedor was vulnerable to grapplers. After all, he got taken down by everyone from smaller guys like Arona and Lindland to a BJJ guy like Nog and even got slammed by Fujita and nearly broken in half by Randleman. He'd also get reversed on the ground a lot, with guys like Babablu, Heath Herring, Nog, and even Mark Hunt nullifying his ground game/putting him on the bottom. But does this mean that grapplers represented a weakness of his, that he was actually vulnerable to them? He'd still beat them all, sometimes even by submission. To describe that as a vulnerability sounds wrong to me. Chuck would get hit by strikers and Fedor would get taken down/reversed by grapplers...but they'd still win. It's weird to describe them as being vulnerable while they were beating everyone.

If anything, when Chuck fought guys like Overeem, Mezger, and Wanderlei he had to rely on wrestling. He would wrestle strikers and strike wrestlers.

Yeah, look at this wrestling...

...so much wrestling...

...even more wrestling...

Yep, just wrestling the wrestlers with all those punches, knees, and kicks.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Okay, by your logic here, you should also have no problem with someone saying that Fedor was vulnerable to grapplers. After all, he got taken down by everyone from smaller guys like Arona and Lindland to a BJJ guy like Nog and even got slammed by Fujita and nearly broken in half by Randleman. He'd also get reversed on the ground a lot, with guys like Babablu, Heath Herring, Nog, and even Mark Hunt nullifying his ground game/putting him on the bottom. But does this mean that grapplers represented a weakness of his, that he was actually vulnerable to them? He'd still beat them all, sometimes even by submission. To describe that as a vulnerability sounds wrong to me. Chuck would get hit by strikers and Fedor would get taken down/reversed by grapplers...but they'd still win. It's weird to describe them as being vulnerable while they were beating everyone.



Yeah, look at this wrestling...

...so much wrestling...

...even more wrestling...

Yep, just wrestling the wrestlers with all those punches, knees, and kicks.

Right...so...get some gifs of him throwing punches but not him using his wrestling. And seriously, did you actually post him punching Guy. Talk about being selective lmao.

Chuck Liddell used wrestling literally in all three of those fights and were major reasons why he won them. I dont know what you're even arguing, that .....his boxing was so incredible that other strikers couldn't deal with it? Are you that delusional?


Not only are you rude but you're flat out ignorant and lack any nuance. Your paragraph about Fedor is nonsense and basically says you can only analyze MMA in two dimensions. You made a fallacy about my "logic" in applying it to Fedor, when all the samples you listed were that those fighters gave Fedor problems because they were smaller and faster, which mitigated his speed advantage. Fedor DOES struggle with faster guys. My "logic" isnt based around that fighters must struggle with either striking or grappling. Chuck Liddell having vulnerabilities isn't based on "logic", it is based on evidence.


Seriously, people on Sherdog would benefit so much from just a basic college class just to learn how to analyze and argue. You're sitting here posting highlights and acting like this is proof that Chuck Liddell does not struggle against strikers - do you see me posting pictures of countless people knocking out Chuck Liddell? No, because that is obviously selective.


You're claiming that you know a lot about Chuck Liddell, but are oblivious that his wrestling is a big part of his game. You probably only think he sprawls, and have no idea about the nuances (no matter how obvious they are to anyone with a brain) that Chuck does use his wrestling offensively to shutdown other fighters offense.

Chuck Liddell does not have good striking defense and has usually gotten away with it due to his physical attributes (which is the most obvious in the Guy Mezger fight, the fact that you're arguing this is jaw dropping). If you think otherwise, then...ok? What are Chuck's weaknesses then? His lack of a flying heel hook?