Phil Mickelson / PGA / Saudi Tour

[Foppa21]

They should all permanently be out of the OWGR as long as they're playing primarily in LIV.

That's the case right now. Their events are not on the OWGR as points earning. I believe they've applied. It'll be interesting how they handle the points. For a start, the 56 hole tournament format. Poitns will be scaled/weighted in any case.

 

[Octavian]

That's the case right now. Their events are not on the OWGR as points earning. I believe they've applied. It'll be interesting how they handle the points. For a start, the 56 hole tournament format. Poitns will be scaled/weighted in any case.

Right... it's teams, 54 holes, no cuts, auto pay based on preexisting contract. Like Tiger said 'what incentive do these guys now have to practice and get better?' I also fear that we won't see much more than half a dozen tournaments a year, as the frequency is also already in their contracts.

It's just irritating watching people applaud and cheer this like it's a great thing and the PGA needed a good kick in the teeth. Before this, not one of the people applauding this had any axe to grind with the PGA - maybe some minor rules but that's IT. So it also feels pretty phony.

 

[Foppa21]

Right... it's teams, 54 holes, no cuts, auto pay based on preexisting contract. Like Tiger said 'what incentive do these guys now have to practice and get better?' I also fear that we won't see much more than half a dozen tournaments a year, as the frequency is also already in their contracts.

It's just irritating watching people applaud and cheer this like it's a great thing and the PGA needed a good kick in the teeth. Before this, not one of the people applauding this had any axe to grind with the PGA - maybe some minor rules but that's IT. So it also feels pretty phony.

I'm not pro LIV in sense even though reading what I wrote below it may feel like it.

From what I gather, there's a team and a individual event being run concurrently.

There's still money on the table. You get a guaranteed amount (the amounts for the top guys are absurd and unsustainable without knowing the full numbers in my mind) but there's still prize money depending on where you finish. Not much more different from appearance fees (but except for the patently obvious additional 0 or two at the end of it). So to Tiger's comments, there's still money on the table but as we've said before, the money some of the guys make, it's a drop in the can. The whole practice and get better thing is all about competing. Are they happy with banking money but being humiliated because they didn't practice? Maybe but these guys got to where they are because they could compete. In my eyes, it's no different to a stick and ball sport player that signed a huge contract... What's push them to continue to practice?

I feel that guys joining are in it for the short run because I can't see how the model is sustainable. A lot of them are in their late 40s so you know what, if they're willing to cash in near the end of their careers, that's their choice. If it folds, I'm curious how the guys that can still play will try to integrate back on to the main tours.

 

[BAM]

No - I think it's all just about money and playing less... honestly, the PGA already pays out a significant chunk of it's total revenue. They can't really fight the Saudis with money... so when Phil talks about how this could be leverage to force the PGA to change, he's basically fooling people and being a liar.

I think Phil is full of shit as to his motivations, it's clearly about money for him. However, going by PGA's behaviour as of late, the competition is already driving player-positive outcomes.

As for the Liv Tour, I think it will evolve over time. Right now they have a limited roster, and they need lots of money to incentivise people to jump ship for a start up, great risk to their careers, hence the giant sums.

Once the roster fills out, I see the offers reducing, but still being more than the PGA, the tour normalising and abandoning the goofier gimmicky things and getting recognised as legitimate and granted points.

Oddly enough, this whole thing reminds me of pro-wrestling where a few companies over the years have tried to go head to head with a monopoly (WWE) immediately rather than grow it organically. Looked a lot like this with WCW in the mid 90's and AEW now.

If the PGA Tour continues to ban Liv Tour players, then the majors will have even more importance. Could be really exciting.

 

[Octavian]

I'm not pro LIV in sense even though reading what I wrote below it may feel like it.

From what I gather, there's a team and a individual event being run concurrently.

There's still money on the table. You get a guaranteed amount (the amounts for the top guys are absurd and unsustainable without knowing the full numbers in my mind) but there's still prize money depending on where you finish. Not much more different from appearance fees (but except for the patently obvious additional 0 or two at the end of it). So to Tiger's comments, there's still money on the table but as we've said before, the money some of the guys make, it's a drop in the can. The whole practice and get better thing is all about competing. Are they happy with banking money but being humiliated because they didn't practice? Maybe but these guys got to where they are because they could compete. In my eyes, it's no different to a stick and ball sport player that signed a huge contract... What's push them to continue to practice?

I feel that guys joining are in it for the short run because I can't see how the model is sustainable. A lot of them are in their late 40s so you know what, if they're willing to cash in near the end of their careers, that's their choice. If it folds, I'm curious how the guys that can still play will try to integrate back on to the main tours.

Right... I also feel like a lot of people would be reacting differently if the Saudis tossed 20B at European football and basically broke players out of their contracts to play elsewhere in some new league that never played the big European clubs. That or American football... imagine Patrick Mahomes playing only 6 games a year in some weirdo league with other vets - everyone makes 30-60M a year and it doesn't matter, win or lose. People would LOSE their minds.

 

[Foppa21]

I think Phil is full of shit as to his motivations, it's clearly about money for him. However, going by PGA's behaviour as of late, the competition is already driving player-positive outcomes.

As for the Liv Tour, I think it will evolve over time. Right now they have a limited roster, and they need lots of money to incentivise people to jump ship for a start up, great risk to their careers, hence the giant sums.

Once the roster fills out, I see the offers reducing, but still being more than the PGA, the tour normalising and abandoning the goofier gimmicky things and getting recognised as legitimate and granted points.

Oddly enough, this whole thing reminds me of pro-wrestling where a few companies over the years have tried to go head to head with a monopoly (WWE) immediately rather than grow it organically. Looked a lot like this with WCW in the mid 90's and AEW now.

If the PGA Tour continues to ban Liv Tour players, then the majors will have even more importance. Could be really exciting.

And the WWE is still the big player after 40 odd years (I'm starting the count from the 80s when they started national expansion)

 

[Foppa21]

Right... I also feel like a lot of people would be reacting differently if the Saudis tossed 20B at European football and basically broke players out of their contracts to play elsewhere in some new league that never played the big European clubs. That or American football... imagine Patrick Mahomes playing only 6 games a year in some weirdo league with other vets - everyone makes 30-60M a year and it doesn't matter, win or lose. People would LOSE their minds.

Don't touch European football lol. Look at The Super League.

 

[BAM]

Right... I also feel like a lot of people would be reacting differently if the Saudis tossed 20B at European football and basically broke players out of their contracts to play elsewhere in some new league that never played the big European clubs. That or American football... imagine Patrick Mahomes playing only 6 games a year in some weirdo league with other vets - everyone makes 30-60M a year and it doesn't matter, win or lose. People would LOSE their minds.

I think that has more to with clubs/teams having roots in a city for generations and it being tied to community, civic pride and family outings. In europe, especially England, it's a community's heritage. When the top tier clubs de jour tried a breakaway superleague, the supporters werent having it.

I dont think the PGA tour attracts that kind of intense loyalty. Just a collection of independent contractors working together for mutual gain. More in common with the ATP and WTA tours than team sports

If there was some other tour and you only got the full field at the majors I wouldnt really care that much. Majors are the real proving ground, not the ATP TMS or the end of year round robin

 

[moreorless87]

Right... I also feel like a lot of people would be reacting differently if the Saudis tossed 20B at European football and basically broke players out of their contracts to play elsewhere in some new league that never played the big European clubs. That or American football... imagine Patrick Mahomes playing only 6 games a year in some weirdo league with other vets - everyone makes 30-60M a year and it doesn't matter, win or lose. People would LOSE their minds.

Various dodgy middle eastern countries including the Saudi's(just bought Newcastle Utd) have thrown money at European football of course but its been in the form of investing in existing teams.

Really I think the moral arguement only comes out when it suits other ends, as long as there investing in the existing system its largely absent plus of course its a bit silly for politicians to get involved when their selling the Saudi's billions in high tech weapons.

 

[BAM]

Various dodgy middle eastern countries including the Saudi's(just bought Newcastle Utd) have thrown money at European football of course but its been in the form of investing in existing teams.

Really I think the moral arguement only comes out when it suits other ends, as long as there investing in the existing system its largely absent plus of course its a bit silly for politicians to get involved when their selling the Saudi's billions in high tech weapons.

To expand upon the political and moral aspect -

Biden just fist bumped MBS in a clear photo op in Riyadh to raise oil production and libs like Rich Eisen are getting on a soap box about golfers "sportswashing". How is the LIV Tour sportswashing when it has 0% chance of successfully laundering the Saudi's reputation. Biden/Trump on the otherhand...

 

[moreorless87]

To expand upon the political and moral aspect -

Biden just fist bumped MBS in a clear photo op in Riyadh to raise oil production and libs like Rich Eisen are getting on a soap box about golfers "sportswashing". How is the LIV Tour sportswashing when it has 0% chance of successfully laundering the Saudi's reputation. Biden/Trump on the otherhand...

I mean it is sportswashing along with the ego games of those involved but that is a pretty minor issue, really when it comes to trade and military conflict the Saudi's are close allies of the US and I think all this kind of stuff is just window dressing to distract from that.

Families of 9/11 victims being trotted out because of golf when that stuff is going on in the background is pretty dam distasful for me.

 

[Octavian]

Various dodgy middle eastern countries including the Saudi's(just bought Newcastle Utd) have thrown money at European football of course but its been in the form of investing in existing teams.

Really I think the moral arguement only comes out when it suits other ends, as long as there investing in the existing system its largely absent plus of course its a bit silly for politicians to get involved when their selling the Saudi's billions in high tech weapons.

I wasn't making a moral argument about accepting Saudi money.. more that for whatever reason people are cheering this because it's golf. But if that same pool of money broke apart European football or American football, there would be a Western World wide meltdown.

 

[moreorless87]

I wasn't making a moral argument about accepting Saudi money.. more that for whatever reason people are cheering this because it's golf. But if that same pool of money broke apart European football or American football, there would be a Western World wide meltdown.

I don't think there would, if the Saudi's invested a lot in their own league and signed a few big name players I don't think you'd have a meltdown like this, those players would probably get some criticism for just going for the money but not to the degree we see here.

Honestly as well I think for most people the majors and the Ryder cup are the golf they care about and not much sign of those being effected accept by the PGA's own hand banning players.

 

[Foppa21]

A whole bunch of player suing the tour.

Phil's just broken the code of silence on not announcing suspensions. Said he was suspended for 2 months and then 2 years.

 

[Octavian]

I don't think there would, if the Saudi's invested a lot in their own league and signed a few big name players I don't think you'd have a meltdown like this, those players would probably get some criticism for just going for the money but not to the degree we see here.

Honestly as well I think for most people the majors and the Ryder cup are the golf they care about and not much sign of those being effected accept by the PGA's own hand banning players.

Yeah right... if a third of the top talent in the NFL and then a ton of youngsters from college fled to play in some fantasy league like 6 game exhibition on Youtube - people would indeed lose their minds. Heck, people already did nearly lose their minds when John Henry tried to create a super league in Europe.

 

[Octavian]

A whole bunch of player suing the tour.

Phil's just broken the code of silence on not announcing suspensions. Said he was suspended for 2 months and then 2 years.

Phil should be banned from PGA and Sr. PGA and RA events for life at this point. Revoke everything ... the guy was actively trying to recruit other players away from the PGA.

He's just showing his true colors at this point... was only a matter of time. Often a fan favorite, he's a deeply flawed narcissist.

 

[rearnakedchoke]

Phil should be banned from PGA and Sr. PGA and RA events for life at this point. Revoke everything ... the guy was actively trying to recruit other players away from the PGA.

He's just showing his true colors at this point... was only a matter of time. Often a fan favorite, he's a deeply flawed narcissist.

Honestly, if LIV can make it and pay guys more, go ahead. But they aren’t playing for prestige at this point, it’s just money. If they can get tv deals and people want to watch, more power to them, but I’m not interested in the product at this point. But it seems to me, like it’s the usual suspects that have moved over. Further more, the pga does a lot for The cities that host them. Not sure LIV is doing the same at this point.
There was a picture of trump, tucker Carlson, MTG and don jr with his gf cheering on LIV. That says a lot to me on who supports this.

 

[Foppa21]

Honestly, if LIV can make it and pay guys more, go ahead. But they aren’t playing for prestige at this point, it’s just money. If they can get tv deals and people want to watch, more power to them, but I’m not interested in the product at this point. But it seems to me, like it’s the usual suspects that have moved over. Further more, the pga does a lot for The cities that host them. Not sure LIV is doing the same at this point.
There was a picture of trump, tucker Carlson, MTG and don jr with his gf cheering on LIV. That says a lot to me on who supports this.

I can understand guys moving over because it is a ton of money, and even if its logevity is short term (a year or two say) they can set your family up for generations.

I bet you they were chasing the money too at that point. Pretty sure PGA have stayed away from Trump courses the last couple of years

 

[rearnakedchoke]

I can understand guys moving over because it is a ton of money, and even if its logevity is short term (a year or two say) they can set your family up for generations.

I bet you they were chasing the money too at that point. Pretty sure PGA have stayed away from Trump courses the last couple of years

Of course. That’s why guys like Sergio and Westwood left. Their best days are past them. Makes sense for them.


Sure. But the whole America First thing to me is funny. More like Me First!

 

[Foppa21]

Of course. That’s why guys like Sergio and Westwood left. Their best days are past them. Makes sense for them.


Sure. But the whole America First thing to me is funny. More like Me First!

America First? What's that about?