palestine/israel, what would it take?

cut the crap. They can pick up the phone or reach out. Instead they categorically rejected it. Incidentally, factions of Hamas WERE open minded and wanted to consider it. I guess they were just living in fantasy land. Stupid people - the prospect of an end to the bloodshed was appealing enough to get their attention.

If we have a business dispute and I say "I have an offer to settle, will you accept?" You can say the following:

1. No, fuck off. I don't want to to deal with you.
2. I never got it, so no, and now I will sue (which is just a different way of saying #1, without actually saying it)
3. I'd want to see your offer, or send it over (which means you actually want to make a deal).

See #2 for what it really is. Which here means that Hamas doesn't care if its people suffer.




I agree 1000%. I think Israel is wrong here.

I just want to be clear that Hamas has blood on its hands as well.

I think what you are missing, either right or wrong, neither side 'picks up the phone' as you state. Both sides wait fro a 3rd party to get involved, and yes hamas should listen to what Egypt is presenting.
 
then how would the zionists create a jewish state without a jewish majority? how do you get to the majority? you get rid of the non jews. i swear you are such a coward. you defend the jews no matter WHAT horrid shit they pull.

i guess Deir Yassin and rest never happened according to jukai.

http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2014...96491003757723_696491003757723#f454d2bcf0be95

My grandmother was a Palestinian. She passed away last summer after decades of being a flag bearer of the strength of Palestinian mothers. She was a survivor of the Deir Yassin massacre in 1948, which was one of the first Palestinian villages to be ethnically cleansed by Zionist militias to create the state of Israel.

but i guess none of this happened because it shows what the jews REALLY did to steal palestine.

Oh no shit, you are part Palestinian? Well, a LOT of things make sense now. Fuck.

Deir Yassin was a revenge killing, similar to how that poor Palestinian kid who got burnt alive was, except the paramilitary organization got annoyed the Palestinians dared fight back and just blew away the village.
It had NOTHING to do with a systematic expulsion of Palestinians.
That came much later, during the war. It started out as an attempt to make it easier to get supplies from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv and when the Israelis saw how successful it was, made it a bit more of a systematic campaign.

Edit: You updated it with information that doesn't remotely help your point. The Arab news media embellished an already grim situation, saying that the Israelis killed hundreds and raped even more. They did it to get the Arab nations to respond in full. All it did was get the Palestinian people to flee en masse--- it made it easier for the Israelis, during the war, to kick out the stragglers. There was a famous Palestinian news reporter (one of the people who spread around the lies) who said it was the first thing they could have done because everyone lost their homes because of it.
Let's focus on that, because it was the PALESTINIANS who lied about it and spread it around, and THAT caused the people to flee. It was NOT intended to cause the Palestinians to flee, the whole thing was Irgun & Lehi to show their legitimacy over the Haganah and it failed, since the earlier two dissolved (and one moderated and reformed into the shit who leads Israel now) and the latter became the IDF.
 
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It is absolutely retarded for Hamas to say they didn't know it existed when every moron across the world with an Internet connection already knew about it. And even worse, they could still accept it after they learned about it, which they did not, so saying the problem is they hadn't heard about it is just garbage. Point of fact they were dismayed to learn about it because their militant faction didn't want peace and the prospect of a truce will ruin their plans.

I certainly agree Israel is very far from innocent, but let's be real, Hamas is also chock full of war-mongering jackasses who love nothing more than to watch bombs fall on both sides, and who are pissing themselves at the thought that the conflict might end before they can grandstand some more.

"However, there were signs of division within Hamas. Conflicting messages were delivered by the Hamas leadership within Gaza, and its international leadership. The organisation's military wing also took a more defiant stand than the political leadership.

The al-Qassam Brigades issued a robust rejection of the truce plan, saying: "Our battle with the enemy continues and will increase in ferocity and intensity." It described the proposal as a "surrender".

Hamas spokesmen in Gaza said the Islamist group had not received an official ceasefire proposal, and its demands must be met before it lays down its weapons."

Unfortunately both Israel and Palestine are unable to control their fanatical zealot factions who thrive on ceaseless conflict, and who wouldn't exist without it. Hence this boring conflict continues eternally.

I agree with this.
 
what a shocker jukai the zionist just defended the jews murdering a village of peaceful arabs who didn't kill anyone.

jukai you still haven't answered the question, how do you have a jewish state without the majority being jewish?

answer: YOU DONT!

The Jewish population was tripling by the year because everyone was running towards it, I am sure the Israeli government didn't give a shit at the time. They were excited to have a new state they could control, perhaps it could have been very different if the Arabs accepted the deal. We will never know.

I am not defending the murder. I said it was not to systematically kick the Palestinians out, it was a revenge killing.

You have already been dubbed for derailing the last thread, please reconsider derailing this one.
 
I think what you are missing, either right or wrong, neither side 'picks up the phone' as you state. Both sides wait fro a 3rd party to get involved, and yes hamas should listen to what Egypt is presenting.

they can call the third party is the point, and this is a technicality anyway.
 
The Jewish population was tripling by the year because everyone was running towards it, I am sure the Israeli government didn't give a shit at the time. They were excited to have a new state they could control, perhaps it could have been very different if the Arabs accepted the deal. We will never know.

I am not defending the murder. I said it was not to systematically kick the Palestinians out, it was a revenge killing.

You have already been dubbed for derailing the last thread, please reconsider derailing this one.

you are so full oif shit it's unreal, its well documented that palestinians were forced from their homes. the zionists were there to create a jewish state and you think they were above kicking palestinians out? gtfo jukai, you are one horrid apartheid defending guy. shame on you.

The 1948 Palestinian exodus, known in Arabic as the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة‎, an-Nakbah, lit. "disaster", "catastrophe", or "cataclysm"),[1] occurred when approximately 711,000 to 726,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from their homes, during the 1947
 
According to the Israeli Yehoshafat Harkabi, "Plan Dalet" called for the conquest of Arab towns and villages inside and along the borders of the area allocated to the proposed Jewish State - according to the UN Partition Plan.[3] In case of resistance, the population of conquered villages was to be expelled outside the borders of the Jewish state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet

i don't even know why you would debate this, all throughout history if a movement comes about that wants to change demos in a given area you encourage the people you want to live there to move there and then encourage the people you don't want there to leave. common sense. and hardly unique to palestine.
 
they WANT to fight

fuck em, let them blow each other to hell. we did what we could, we tried.our best for Israel but if theyre so set on poking the bull, we should just stay out of it
 
staying out of it means not arming them and not covering their apartheid state in the UN.
 
you are so full oif shit it's unreal, its well documented that palestinians were forced from their homes. the zionists were there to create a jewish state and you think they were above kicking palestinians out? gtfo jukai, you are one horrid apartheid defending guy. shame on you.

The 1948 Palestinian exodus, known in Arabic as the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة‎, an-Nakbah, lit. "disaster", "catastrophe", or "cataclysm"),[1] occurred when approximately 711,000 to 726,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from their homes, during the 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine and the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.[2] The term nakba also refers to the period of war itself and events affecting Palestinians from December 1947 to January 1949, and is synonymous in that sense with what is known to Israelis as the War of Independence (Hebrew: מלחמת העצמאות or מלחמת הקוממיות, Milkhemet Ha'atzma'ut, a term which covers those two events).[3][4][5][6]

The exact number of refugees is a matter of dispute.[7] But around 80 percent of the Arab inhabitants of what became Israel (50 percent of the Arab total of Mandatory Palestine) left or were expelled from their homes

I have literally went over this already. Literally.

There are four phases of the exodus.
1- The first phase was done BEFORE the war started. The wealthier Palestinians left simply to wait out the war and return when Israel was gone.
2- The Palestinian media began spreading around lies about Israelis raping villages to get international support. It backfired and caused a mass exodus of Palestinians.
3- Israel began clearing out villages along routes from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem so it was easier to send supplies up and down without being attacked by the ALA who used these villages as bases. They also attacked Haffa with heavy artillery.
4- With the success of number 3, there was an unspoken but well documented project that called for increasing the clearing out of villages because the Israelis realized they could take a large amount of land and cities this way. How prevalent this was and how many Palestinians were actually forced out by this systematic approach is up to debate, but you are right, it DEFINITELY happened. Specifically, the events surrounding Haffa are up to a lot of debate.

There was a report by the SHAI (Israeli intelligence at the time) that summed it up:
At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations. To this figure, the report's compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which "directly (caused) some 15% ... of the emigration". A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis. In addition, the report attributes 22% of the departures to "fears" and "a crisis of confidence" affecting the Palestinian population. As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases
Believe it or don't believe it, but the report blame the exodus on Palestinians fleeing from military operations... and only 2% came from actually kicking the Palestinians out of the villages.
Now, this report came out in June 1948. It's likely the Israeli military picked up kicking out the Palestinians once they saw how successful it was (Morris writes that in October, it shifted from "we need to clear these villages so that they will stop attacking us" to "Let's kick them out and steal their land!!!"). But at the beginning of the war, it was not the case.

And, I will have to stress this point, this all came AFTER the Palestinians refused to split the land and began attacking Israelis.

This will be the last time I address this. It's very clear you have an emotional attachment to this issue and you can't think through with this logically. Respond however you want.
 
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they WANT to fight

fuck em, let them blow each other to hell. we did what we could, we tried.our best for Israel but if theyre so set on poking the bull, we should just stay out of it

"Poking the bull?" What?
 
Also- what was int eh agreement? Just b/c Israel accepted a ceasefire, does not mean its right for hamas or the Palestinian people or are you suggesting hamas should accept ANY ceasefire agreement regardless of the details?

Under the circumstances, yes. Hamas is gaining precisely nothing from its campaign other than getting Palestinians killed. And it's not owed fuck-all as part of a ceasefire deal. Firing rockets at civilians is a war crime, as is firing those rockets from within civilian areas. They should cease committing such war crimes and receive nothing in the way of a reward for doing so (not least because they shouldn't be presented wth an incentive to resume such attacks in future whenever they feel like being lavished with blandishments to stop).

The people of Gaza want a ceasefire (I posted a poll in the 'Hamas rejects truce' thread) so it is certainly right for them. However, I will agree with you that it's probably not right for Hamas.

Hamas is being played here by Israel and Egypt, but that's a good thing because it's a racist, genocidal terrorist organisation that doesn't represent the Palestinians and which throws their lives away in pursuit of its nihilistic goals, using their deaths as currency in its war against Israel. It's better for everyone, Palestinian and Israeli alike, if this Islamic terrorist group is weakened and (hopefully) eventually destroyed.

Egypt under Abdel Fattah el-Sisi despises Hamas as the Islamist group is essentially the Gaza offshoot of his enemies, The Muslim Brotherhood. El-Sisi's government is happy to let Israel kick the shit out of Hamas whilst Egypt stands by and silently watches. To that end, a ceasefire proposal was drawn up which didn't involve Hamas being given an opportunity to set terms. Egypt and Israel knew Hamas would likely reject such a ceasefire because they would look humiliated in accepting it with, i.e. no prisoner releases, no lifting of any Gaza restrictions, and little to show for the whole affair other than ruined buidlings, half their weapons (maybe more) destroyed, and a couple of hundred dead on their side (vs. 1 dead Israeli as of today). Israel immediately agreed to the ceasefire, Netanyahu even going so far as to sack cabinet ministers who opposed it, knowing full well that they need only abide by it a short time whilst Hamas shoots itself in the foot by flatly rejecting it, continuing its attacks, and thus giving Israel full diplomatic cover to, as the PM has already publicly stated, resume and intensify Operation Protective Edge, possibly even with a ground offensive.

Egypt and Israel presented Hamas with a wide and public opportunity for de-escalation, and it was turned down.

(Note: this is the second ceasefire proposal in a week that Hamas has rejected. Israel called for a ceasefire before OPE even started, and waited until 150 rockets were fired at the Jewish state, and the ceasefire dismissed, before responding.)
 
Bullshit. They had their chance. They lost. They can't possibly win any kind of direct confrontation, so they resort to the shit they've resorted to for years. And occasionally - and halfheartedly - indicated that these cowardly attacks would stop if the Israelis would agree to conditions that the Arabs rejected years ago.
They'll lose on this front, too. In case you were wondering.

It's called asymmetric warfare. When the poor face the rich nowadays they tend to not line up and walk politely towards the machine guns.

Israel has no plan, it would seem, except to wall in and box a population in a smaller and smaller space. There is no way that they can 'win' without either wiping the Palistinians out or creating the largest concentration camp in history; which I might add, they have nearly created already.

It's so idiotic. Mindbogglingly so.
 
The only way this might be resolved is for the Israelis to allow the Palistinians to prosper, the vice of poverty and oppression just inspires more hate.
 
Massive immigration into Isreal by secular Chinese people. Synagogues and mosques will turn into shopping malls and condo apartments.
 
Massive immigration into Isreal by secular Chinese people. Synagogues and mosques will turn into shopping malls and condo apartments.

Israel will have its own Flushing.
 

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