Overhand palm heel vs overhand punch for barefist

[listrahtes]

Jumping off with an assumption that MMA gloves make it so you can’t strike with the palm of your hand just seems so wild. As somebody who has to tape hands for fighters professionally I honestly have no idea where he got that.

I know its wild and nonsense. I am just surprised you try to reason. He has no clue about fighting. I wouldnt be surprised if he never even wrapped his own hands.

Btw a palm strike is also rarely if ever seen if normal punches are allowed because our wrist is not designed for impact in that position. Normally the carpal bones of the hand like lunate and scaphoid would come in contact with the radius and get fractured with an extended hand. To prevent that we have a discuss similar to our intervertebral discs. This structure prevents this from happening but has a high risk of tearing if you put pressure on it. Its a failesafe and a shock absorber in neutral position but nothing more and there is no way of hardening it.

An extended hand position always maximizes the potential threat of injury to the scaphoid and esp. the discus as does direct impact in that area.

In the end humans arent designed for handfights (we suck at it compared to other animals ) but closed fist with a neutral position handwrist is the safest position to use and the one we can transfer the most through the powerline (Jack Dempsey chapter 9) . Thats as far as my knowledge goes.

 

[DoctorTaco]

It renders it more energy inefficient fool and less flexible therefore less likely to be used. Are you disputing this?

Yes. The amount of energy needed to bend against the wraps is so minor it’s not worth factoring what so ever.

Why go to the trouble or wrapping ones hands and knuckles to throw palm strikes anyway?

positionally speaking they occasionally make more sense than a punch. As an example I had a kid last weekend utilize palm strikes from rubber guard to set up his arm bar.

 

[TheMaster]

I feel the broken hands in MMA aren't the result of hands being brittle when punching and more a result of guys throwing punches before their fist has finished forming (If you understand what I mean)

I believe this to be a major factor yes. But it's part and parcel since most people keep the fist relaxed until expected impact to increase speed and power. No one has the fist fully clenched from the beginning there is no power that way.

Btw a palm strike is also rarely if ever seen if normal punches are allowed because our wrist is not designed for impact in that position. Normally the carpal bones of the hand like lunate and scaphoid would come in contact with the radius and get fractured with an extended hand. To prevent that we have a discuss similar to our intervertebral discs. This structure prevents this from happening but has a high risk of tearing if you put pressure on it. Its a failesafe and a shock absorber in neutral position but nothing more and there is no way of hardening it.

An extended hand position always maximizes the potential threat of injury to the scaphoid and esp. the discus as does direct impact in that area.

In the end humans arent designed for handfights (we suck at it compared to other animals ) but closed fist with a neutral position handwrist is the safest position to use and the one we can transfer the most through the powerline (Jack Dempsey chapter 9) . Thats as far as my knowledge goes.

Don't talk like an idiot again as usual please. You've clearly never used or studied palm strikes so why try to argue when you are ignorant?
And why reference the powerline that is for straight punches not for overhands. For overhands a palm strike actually gives more range of angles as has been mentioned, its the default and much more natural overhand strike.

A palm heel overhand is far safer than a fist overhand. I will leave aside the issue of whether a palm is safer in general than a fist for all strikes although I would say it is and Bas agrees due to the risk of the fist making contact before closing to easily breaking whereas the palm is always ready throughout which is why he recommends switching to palmstrikes if in unpredictable situations fighting more than one person where range and targets can't be properly gauged.

 

[listrahtes]

Don't talk like an idiot again as usual please. You've clearly never used or studied palm strikes so why try to argue when you are ignorant?

I surrender to your superior knowledge and years of studying. In my impertinence I described the biomechanics of the wrist. I regret forgetting that Wing Chun masters arent human anymore and have trancscended human anatomy. Shame onto me.

Regarding powerline the incompetent Jack Dempsey had something to say about your ahem interpretation of "only straight punches:
"We have examined the power line and second knuckle aiming for straight jolts; but what about other punches, and hooks and uppercuts? Does the power line and the second knuckle aim hold good for them?.

Yes indeed, they do hold good. You must hit along the power line in ALL full-fledged punches AND YOU MUST ALWAYS AIM WITH THE SECOND KNUCKLE (Dempsey put that in captions)."

But well that was Dempsey. This jokster did not even study Wing Chun Dong.

My small contribution before i will be crucified (WT mob is massing in front of my house). No punch better to feel the powerline then with a proper aligned hook.

 

[TheMaster]

I surrender to your superior knowledge and years of studying. In my impertinence I described the biomechanics of the wrist. I regret forgetting that Wing Chun masters arent human anymore and have trancscended human anatomy. Shame onto me.

Regarding powerline the incompetent Jack Dempsey had something to say about your ahem interpretation of "only straight punches:
"We have examined the power line and second knuckle aiming for straight jolts; but what about other punches, and hooks and uppercuts? Does the power line and the second knuckle aim hold good for them?.

Yes indeed, they do hold good. You must hit along the power line in ALL full-fledged punches AND YOU MUST ALWAYS AIM WITH THE SECOND KNUCKLE (Dempsey put that in captions)."

But well that was Dempsey. This jokster did not even study Wing Chun Dong.

My small contribution before i will be crucified (WT mob is massing in front of my house). No punch better to feel the powerline then with a proper aligned hook.

You quoting anatomical terms to sound clever in no way indicates you understand what you are taking about or are using the angles correctly.
Yes, you can defer to Wing Chun and Karate since they use palm strikes and evidently you never have.

How about deferring also to Bas Rutten, or do his years of cage fighting and bouncing which led him to advocate palm strikes as safer than punching barefist with reduced risk of damaging the hands as I have linked above, not count for you now?

As for you regurgitating a Dempsey quote which you likewise likely don't understand, kindly explain how you think the power line (i.e for straight punches) applies to non-linear strikes as we are discussing and for overhands.

 

[listrahtes]

As for you regurgitating a Dempsey quote which you likewise likely don't understand, kindly explain how you think a power line (i.e for straight punches) applies to non-linear strikes as we are discussing.

Your understanding of Dempsey like always sets a light of wisdom even Dempsey did not achieve as he explicit included all punches and powerline and second knuckle aiming as one principle defined by two concepts.

You quoting anatomical terms to sound clever in no way indicates you understand what you are taking about or are using the angles correctly.

Yeah I know my understanding is filled with holes. Anatomy and biomechanics in general should be ignored when understanding human movement. To my defense its not easy to "sound clever" when a martial arts giant like you is part of the discussion.

 

[TheMaster]

Your understanding of Dempsey like always sets a light of wisdom even Dempsey did not achieve as he explicit included all punches and powerline and second knuckle aiming as one principle defined by two concepts.



Yeah I know my understanding is filled with holes. Anatomy and biomechanics in general should be ignored when understanding human movement. To my defense its not easy to "sound clever" when a martial arts giant like you is part of the discussion.

So are you going to try to answer the question and contribute something or just play this circular jigsaw game and make your usual snide remarks from the corner like a cockroach without actually saying anything before scurrying back to your hole?

-How does a power line apply to non-linear strikes? I don't want to hear a 'teacher said' type of comment from you. Explain your understanding.

- Why would whatever you think the power line is be not relevant to palm heels but relevant to punches?

- so you are dispute Bas advocating for why palms are safer than fists? Why? Better get those anatomy books out again.

LMAO at you in advance

 

[listrahtes]

@TheMaster
I entered the thread because @DoctorTaco wrote an insightful post that was funny.
Regarding you yeah we have now wrote arguments to each other mostly because I dont like people misinterpreting Jack Dempsey and wanted to help presenting some anatomical basics. but the time has long passed I take you serious. Tried that several times like many other members and in the end its always the same circle jerk. You have no practical knowledge and are the classic keyboard warrior, refuse to show any kind of live execution of your wild theories and ignore every point of argument disproved, so every discussion is moot. Its fun sometimes but dont expect me ever taking you serious again. For that to happen you will have to post some videos and make yourself visible and not just a babbler. Powerline is a cool thing to talk and learn about (I am far from perfect. very far!) but not with someone who has never thrown a proper punch in his life and doesnt even understand the basics. Martial arts is not something you can learn by only reading books and talking others to death.

 

[DoctorTaco]

@TheMaster
I entered the thread because @DoctorTaco wrote an insightful post that was funny.
Regarding you yeah we have now wrote arguments to each other mostly because I dont like people misinterpreting Jack Dempsey and wanted to help presenting some anatomical basics. but the time has long passed I take you serious. Tried that several times like many other members and in the end its always the same circle jerk. You have no practical knowledge and are the classic keyboard warrior, refuse to show any kind of live execution of your wild theories and ignore every point of argument disproved, so every discussion is moot. Its fun sometimes but dont expect me ever taking you serious again. For that to happen you will have to post some videos and make yourself visible and not just a babbler. Powerline is a cool thing to talk and learn about (I am far from perfect. very far!) but not with someone who has never thrown a proper punch in his life and doesnt even understand the basics. Martial arts is not something you can learn by only reading books and talking others to death.

that’s a KO if I’ve ever seen one

 

[j123]

Martial arts is not something you can learn by only reading books and talking others to death.

Why you gotta destroy my dreams brah

 

[TheMaster]

@TheMaster
I entered the thread because @DoctorTaco wrote an insightful post that was funny.
Regarding you yeah we have now wrote arguments to each other mostly because I dont like people misinterpreting Jack Dempsey and wanted to help presenting some anatomical basics. but the time has long passed I take you serious. Tried that several times like many other members and in the end its always the same circle jerk. You have no practical knowledge and are the classic keyboard warrior, refuse to show any kind of live execution of your wild theories and ignore every point of argument disproved, so every discussion is moot. Its fun sometimes but dont expect me ever taking you serious again. For that to happen you will have to post some videos and make yourself visible and not just a babbler. Powerline is a cool thing to talk and learn about (I am far from perfect. very far!) but not with someone who has never thrown a proper punch in his life and doesnt even understand the basics. Martial arts is not something you can learn by only reading books and talking others to death.

As expected...you make a claim then start making excuses when called out.
So you don't like me or take my training series? Fine, we know you had a bad experience with WC in the past and have something against it.

So how about, rather than proving my statement that you are just a keyboard warrior blowing hot air and for others who may be reading the thread since you raised some interesting points you answer the questions rather than scurrying away like a bitch after making your claims without backing them up?

 

[Woldog]

I could see the benefit of a palm strike to the chin straight on or on an upward angle, but I just can't see it being safer or more practical than a fist as an overhand.

 

[listrahtes]

I could see the benefit of a palm strike to the chin straight on or on an upward angle, but I just can't see it being safer or more practical than a fist as an overhand.

Bas is a good example. He had to perfect palm strikes because they were the only ones allowed in Pancrase but if you watch his later fights I dont remember even one were he used them when fist punching was allowed.
He used basically slaps as a bouncer to not injure his hands because thats all that is needed vs. most untrained guys. Makes sense. Most bouncers try not to get into fist fights as its also close to getting problems with police later on and about not injuring the drunk idiot (and your own hands) but getting him under control.

So how about, rather than proving my statement that you are just a keyboard warrior

Oh no problem, I can upload a quite recent shadow boxing video. I played around to music for some footwork. I am not in any boxing training for more than a year now but heck why not. I guess most have stopped training with COVID . Lets both do that. You can show your palm strikes, movement or just normal punching , footwork, shadowboxing, sparring whatever. Deal?

 

[TheMaster]

Bas is a good example. He had to perfect palm strikes because they were the only ones allowed in Pancrase but if you watch his later fights I dont remember even one were he used them when fist punching was allowed.
He used basically slaps as a bouncer to not injure his hands because thats all that is needed vs. most untrained guys. Makes sense. Most bouncers try not to get into fist fights as its also close to getting problems with police later on and about not injuring the drunk idiot (and your own hands) but getting him under control.

Except that you are ignoring the actual video above where he says directly he advocates using palm strikes not punches when facing more than one opponent in self defence as range and target are unpredictable, to protect the hands from injury.

Oh no problem, I can upload a quite recent shadow boxing video. I played around to music for some footwork. I am not in any boxing training for more than a year now but heck why not. I guess most have stopped training with COVID . Lets both do that. You can show your palm strikes, movement or just normal punching , footwork, shadowboxing, sparring whatever. Deal?

Why would I want to do that and share my training with disrespectful idiots? You would want to see something so that no matter what is shown, you could make more of your snide little cockroach-like comments. Lol, no thanks.
And if you don't rate my training why would you want to see me demo a palm heel or other techniques? If you want to post a video of yourself demoing whatever and it makes you feel good then do so.

What I can say is I have tested myself on occasion, done light sparring not too long ago with a guy who trains and spars regularly at an mma gym and he was getting winded by palm strikes to the body thrown at about 60% power. This may have been partly also as he is not used to taking them.

You are also avoiding the question and changing the subject.
How is the power line for straights applicable to non-linear strikes like hooks and overhands?
This is important as regardless of what you may have read in the Dempsey book it means our understanding of the concept of powerline is different.

You also claim that the power line applies to punches not palm strikes. Again, this is not my understanding as according to Dempsey the powerline runs through the shoulder and out through the pinkie knuckle, although he recommends to hit with the ring finger as it is larger. This is the same like that runs through the straight palm heel.

Again, it would not be as relevant to a palm hook or palm overhand. An overhand works great for a palm heel as there are more lines and angles that can be used and the downward motion is far more natural than turning the fist over into an overhand punch.

 

[DoctorTaco]

Why would I want to do that and share my training with disrespectful idiots?

everyone on this forum who coaches, teaches or offers insight to instruction has gone so far as to post training or fight clips. You take your lumps but it shows you’re not just some keyboard warrior spouting theory. Why not do the same? Is it any different to you than sharing your essays?

 

[Azam]

Except that you are ignoring the actual video above where he says directly he advocates using palm strikes not punches when facing more than one opponent in self defence as range and target are unpredictable, to protect the hands from injury.



Why would I want to do that and share my training with disrespectful idiots? You would want to see something so that no matter what is shown, you could make more of your snide little cockroach-like comments. Lol, no thanks.
And if you don't rate my training why would you want to see me demo a palm heel or other techniques? If you want to post a video of yourself demoing whatever and it makes you feel good then do so.

What I can say is I have tested myself on occasion, done light sparring not too long ago with a guy who trains and spars regularly at an mma gym and he was getting winded by palm strikes to the body thrown at about 60% power. This may have been partly also as he is not used to taking them.

You are also avoiding the question and changing the subject.
How is the power line for straights applicable to non-linear strikes like hooks and overhands?
This is important as regardless of what you may have read in the Dempsey book it means our understanding of the concept of powerline is different.

You also claim that the power line applies to punches not palm strikes. Again, this is not my understanding as according to Dempsey the powerline runs through the shoulder and out through the pinkie knuckle, although he recommends to hit with the ring finger as it is larger. This is the same like that runs through the straight palm heel.

Again, it would not be as relevant to a palm hook or palm overhand. An overhand works great for a palm heel as there are more lines and angles that can be used and the downward motion is far more natural than turning the fist over into an overhand punch.

Was he relatively new to MMA? Serious question.

I don't see how palm strikes would legit wind anyone with any solid amount of training. It might hurt in the way a slap might but winded?

 

[listrahtes]

Why you gotta destroy my dreams brah

Well you can still make a shit ton of money teaching without any clue about it. Theres your silver lining

Was he relatively new to MMA? Serious question.
I don't see how palm strikes would legit wind anyone with any solid amount of training. It might hurt in the way a slap might but winded?

Bas fought 5 years in Pancrase and only open hand strikes were allowed. Thats why he perfected them and still likes them a lot. They were his most important weapon for near his entire career because of the ruleset.
Still as soon as he changed to annother ruleset he did not use them anyomore despite them being allowed. If he talks about bouncer job or da streez you have to keep in mind these are 99% drunken fools without any skills. A simple slap is enough most of the times.I wouldnt overthink that. His liver open palm KO is legendary. Love it. And keep in mind we are talking about someone who had to use them as a professional fighter for years. Quite sure Bas open palm strikes are deadly stuff.

Why would I want to do that and share my training with disrespectful idiots? You would want to see something so that no matter what is shown, you could make more of your snide little cockroach-like comments. Lol, no thanks.
And if you don't rate my training why would you want to see me demo a palm heel or other techniques? If you want to post a video of yourself demoing whatever and it makes you feel good then do so.

See thats why I had a laugh when the Taco Doc asked you to show something. You are all talk and react like that now for close to 20 years.

 

[shunyata]

Jumping off with an assumption that MMA gloves make it so you can’t strike with the palm of your hand just seems so wild. As somebody who has to tape hands for fighters professionally I honestly have no idea where he got that.

You’ve had the knuckles, compress and support the metacarpals, And secure the wrist, But in no way does this limit your mobility. It’s not as if you couldn’t do a push-up or some thing because your hands were taped.

Even if one had never taped hands, you can literally see film of Jon Jones holding his lead hand out to measure distance with the fingers pointing up and the palm forward with the wrist bent. In nearly every Jones fight. For a decade.


I'm still laughing at the gifs from the Hackney Yarborough fight, Hackney is so outsized he practically has to jump to reach Yarborough's chin even when right next to him. Yarborough had no standup whatsoever in that time and could have buried Hackney if he knew how to get and use a clinch and threw a few uppercuts.

Hackney was terrible in every fight I saw him in, and would have gotten completely wrecked by experienced kickboxers of that era.

I respect for him for stepping into the arena, but he's a clear case of a "tma guy" who would have had much better results training proper kickboxing.

 

[TheMaster]

Bas fought 5 years in Pancrase and only open hand strikes were allowed. Thats why he perfected them and still likes them a lot. They were his most important weapon for near his entire career because of the ruleset.
Still as soon as he changed to annother ruleset he did not use them anyomore despite them being allowed. If he talks about bouncer job or da streez you have to keep in mind these are 99% drunken fools without any skills. A simple slap is enough most of the times.I wouldnt overthink that. His liver open palm KO is legendary. Love it. And keep in mind we are talking about someone who had to use them as a professional fighter for years. Quite sure Bas open palm strikes are deadly stuff.

Except you are ignoring that Bas says he would use fists in 1 vs 1 but would switch to palm strikes vs 2 or more people to protect the hands from injury, and advocates more mma fighters to use the palm heel behind the ear as the KO strike.

In the same vid it is also said he claims Tyson wasc connecting alot with his hooks actually as palm heels behind the ear.

Was he relatively new to MMA? Serious question.

I don't see how palm strikes would legit wind anyone with any solid amount of training. It might hurt in the way a slap might but winded?

If you are comparing a palm strike to a slap you don't understand them. You connect with the palm heel/wrist bone and it is solid, anatomically more solid than the knuckles and phalanges.

Hackney was terrible in every fight I saw him in, and would have gotten completely wrecked by experienced kickboxers of that era.

I respect for him for stepping into the arena, but he's a clear case of a "tma guy" who would have had much better results training proper kickboxing.

This may or may not be true but it doesn't change that he had good palm strikes which he wouldn't have learned in straight kickboxing. Without the the gloves punching in mma becomes less common.
Royce also said Hackney was the hardest anyone hit him in his MMA career and that he felt "I thought the top of my head had split open, that's how hard it was".

 

[Woldog]

If you are comparing a palm strike to a slap you don't understand them. You connect with the palm heel/wrist bone and it is solid, anatomically more solid than the knuckles and phalanges.

The reason why a punch would hurt and do more damage is because all that force is being directed into essentially a small point at the end of your two knuckles you should be landing with when you punch. It's like a bullet or a hammer, when you were to hit someone with the palm it spreads the force across more area.
Its very easy to drop someone with a punch to the liver, I'm not sure how easy it would be to drop someone with a palm to the liver. But I've also never been palmed by anyone.