Out-of-Association promotions?

[Gabicho]

I don't think he does it as a bribe, he doesn't need to, his seminars are always stacked. I think he just doesn't worry too much about blue belts. For someone like him, a bluebelt (let alone a stripe) may not mean much at all... while others think it's a big achievement.

If he promotes someone to bluebelt ahead of time, i think he's actually forcing that "undeserving" bluebelt to grow into the belt he now holds. The only harm would be if that bluebelt entirely quits BJJ and stays at whitebelt level for the rest of his life.

Talking with a friend on the subject, he put it this way: "In the big sea of BJJ, Royce is a giant killer squid that has gone around the world eighteen times, and has fought with a fair amount of sharks, whales and crocodiles. If he wants to magically turn a larvae (whitebelt) into a trout (a bluebelt), the big pond stays the same".
:icon_chee

I for one, am always happy when my instructor promotes me, and i would politely decline any other instructor's promotions unless my instructor is present and gives me the nod.

 

[koolinkunming]

Wow. Hell of a thread this turned into. Much ado about nothing, as far as I can tell.

This stuff in this thread is the kind of shit that almost makes me never want to bother paying attention to a belt color or who I get it from.

Should you respect your main instructor? Of course. Are you to be exclusive to only him/her in every case? No, not necessarily. Yeah, belt promotions should be okayed by your primary instructor, but it seems that it's all so subjective. Obviously there is huge disparity about what being a blue/purple, etc entails. What one instructor sees as a purple might be scoffed at by another from all I've gathered in this thread as well as many others in this forum. I see more bickering here about belts and lineage and shit than any other topic here.

I also hear "leave your ego at the door" all the time around here. PFFFFTTT! Why doesn't that apply to all the other areas off BJJ as well? Yeah, of course respect your instructor and lineage, but why get all butt hurt to the extent that people seem to?

The belt promotions/stripes should be done by your primary instructor yes, or okayed by him/her if another instructor thinks you should be awarded a higher rank. That's common courtesy.

Why isn't belt promotion more standardized with specific skills/requirements set for both the competitor and non-competitor both? It would definitely clear up a lot of confusion and bitching, and eliminate the subjective nature of promotions. There should be guidelines to skills and proficiency in their applications for each level. The only person I've seen do this to some extent is Roy Harris. If there are others, that's great and seems to be pretty common sense.

Seems like a bunch of needless confusion. I just don't get it.

Sorry for the rant, it's just that the stuff in this thread boggles my mind. Like I said at the start, it makes me want to just forget about belts and lineage and affiliation and just practise the art.

 

[redaxe]

Talking with a friend on the subject, he put it this way: "In the big sea of BJJ, Royce is a giant killer squid that has gone around the world eighteen times, and has fought with a fair amount of sharks, whales and crocodiles. If he wants to magically turn a larvae (whitebelt) into a trout (a bluebelt), the big pond stays the same".
:icon_chee

Yeah, I get that, and it's basically what I was trying to say in the second paragraph of my last comment.

I don't think it's the right mentality to have, because people deserve a certain level of respect regardless of what belt rank they are in a martial art, and showing respect for people of lower status than yourself is the sign of true class.

Plus, as far as I can tell no one asked him for these promotions, and they seem to be kind of an unwanted gift.

But I can understand if that is his perspective. And maybe for every one guy who's torn up about it like Heavy Grappler was, there are ten guys who are just thinking Royce is awesome for promoting them.

 

[Jdonw]

Talking with a friend on the subject, he put it this way: "In the big sea of BJJ, Royce is a giant killer squid that has gone around the world eighteen times, and has fought with a fair amount of sharks, whales and crocodiles. If he wants to magically turn a larvae (whitebelt) into a trout (a bluebelt), the big pond stays the same".
:icon_chee

But what about local ecosystems?

Seriously though, 5 new blue belts in California is not the same as 5 new blue belts in Michigan. Or a few purple belts. In Michigan, the legitimate schools know who are being promoted the right ways and the wrong ways. But the ones that do it the wrong way bring a lot of embarrassment to our local bjj community. And as it sounds like in Nova Scotia, promotions are hard to come by, so it becomes a big deal.

 

[nefti]

I don't think he does it as a bribe, he doesn't need to, his seminars are always stacked. I think he just doesn't worry too much about blue belts. For someone like him, a bluebelt (let alone a stripe) may not mean much at all... while others think it's a big achievement.

maybe they are stacked because the people who attend know that they are going to get promoted...

 

[boisefireman]

My instructor has stated that if someone he has belted wants to get a belt or stripe from another instructor, good on them but he won't issue anymore promotions to them because they are now someone elses student.
He has standards and timelines for belts and stripes. If a students doesn't like them they can move on. I totally agree.

 

[Fedorzilla]

Technically you did, i just pointed out that under YOUR criteria all of them are whores, good thing that the greats are "whores" because if they weren't "whores" there would be no BJJ PERIOD, there is simply no argument against this.

Jigoro Kano trained under many different jujutsu schools and many of his first generation students trained under other schools before joining him, and without Kano there would had not been BJJ, in fact there would not be any kind of JJ.

Rickson and many others trained not only under his father but under wrestling and under Medhi, this at a time before BJJ was recognized as a separate sport from judo, Rolls crosstrained a lot too, and picked up the triangle from judo schools, they were a tight family after all.

To make it short, the very best are not worried about politics they are worried about improvement, and they can think on their own, the same applies to instructors.

I mean grow the fuck up, its a martial art, not some kind of multilevel marketing or a ponzi scheme, sadly everything in America seems to be ruled by the almighty dollar, which is good and bad at the same time, sure it allows incentives to spread the art and funds great training facilities but it also can set greed in the mind of people.

Wow, try to be more of an itchy taint. I never said anything about the criteria you're talking about, Ringo. Actually, I'm a mutt myself when it comes to lineage. I mean, I'm training under a Gracie Barra affiliate in Shanghai of all places, got my blue from Alliance and spent most of my time with Yamasaki.

It's true, and I would agree, that the politics shouldn't control, but despite your petty quips about American materialism, there is something to be said for keeping promotions within your organization. For example, your primary instructor knows your game quite well and probably understands where your game stacks up from various positions. For example, you might go into a seminar and look great from top but your guard is shit or you become a complete dead fish and give up when you give up side control/mount. These are things your instructor may know, but some guy promoting you in a seminar might not see on a given day. That's not about whoring, it's about accuracy of evaluation.

In addition, there's a distinction between cross-training (as Rolls and many others have) and getting promotions. It's not like Rolls was a blue belt, then trained with a Judo guy and got a promotion through him. Not just that, but they were all one fucking family anyway and had a fairly consistent training group where they would train with one another all the time. There is much more diversity in viewpoint and standards now, whether it be blue/purple/brown. It's like a game of telephone and the greater diversity has resulted in widely varying standards. For example, I just attended a tournament in Japan where one school handed out brown belts to essentially everyone who medal'd at purple. Guys who finished in 3rd place in small divisions are standing there with their browns while the instructors for the purples standing on the 2nd and 1st place podium are just shaking their heads.

I'm guessing that you think the belts are meaningless, and that's your right. However, it's not a viewpoint that everyone else is obliged to subscribe to.

 

[Wrestleben]

My instructor has stated that if someone he has belted wants to get a belt or stripe from another instructor, good on them but he won't issue anymore promotions to them because they are now someone elses student.
He has standards and timelines for belts and stripes. If a students doesn't like them they can move on. I totally agree.

So what if someone was a blue belt under Keith and we'll just say a purple shirt under someone else (hypothetically). If that person was awarded a brown shirt, would Keith no longer consider them his student?

 

[boisefireman]

So what if someone was a blue belt under Keith and we'll just say a purple shirt under someone else (hypothetically). If that person was awarded a brown shirt, would Keith no longer consider them his student?

I knew this would come out. Ari is a blue belt in Brazilian jiu jitsu period. The purple shirt, red sash, chain belt it doesn't matter what you are in other martial arts, Keith judges students with a very clear standard of technique and time. The "shirt" system means nothing in the bjj belt system in our school. Good for anyone to train in another art though. Can only help. Good question.

 

[Gumbi_guard]

So what if someone was a blue belt under Keith and we'll just say a purple shirt under someone else (hypothetically). If that person was awarded a brown shirt, would Keith no longer consider them his student?

I see what you did there..

 

[Rod1]

I think you are an idealist and live in a world of your imagination and looking at BJJ with your judo glasses on.

Judo, karate, TKD and many bjj associations or pretty much any MA that took the belt approach of training glasses.

Ok, so I have writing about what is going in BJJ. I never ever said it was good or bad stuff. I never passed a judgement. As a journalist, I just write what I experienced.

Yeah, rivalries don't exist but in BJJ right.

You (on the other hand) are just keep critising everything and nothing as long as you can apply your pre-conceived ideas. Once again, I am not saying that your pre-conceived ideas are wrong or right. I just assumed that you have such ideas from your Judo background which is coolOnce again Judo and BJJ are two different animals..

Again, its not judo, i just happen to be from judo its ALL belted MAs and this includes BJJ too, at least many schools of thought like Royces or Ricksons. They are multibred fighters, they are not guys who picked up BJJ as their first and only MA.

Judo and BJJ are more similar than you think, specially when you go up the ladder, hence why Rickson and Royce are willing to rank people they see as fit.

In BJJ, you are defined by which team you belong to. which family you belong to. If you go and watch some international BJJ competitions. People are seated by their team and not by country. You go and watch the comp in LA, GB team are seated together regardless of their nationality.

So BJJ is defined by competition, cool, nice shit "leave ego at door" and other bs catchphrases are lies then?

Once you have seen the disapointment on your teamate face once he lost to another team, you will seek revenge as he belongs to your team. Once you team win the team trophy, you will be happy and celebrate with your team mates. Hell, team win is even more important that individual wins to some teamsThe animosity/rivalry between teams is legendary in BJJ.!

There is no animosity in Judo, karate or any other MA? didn't knew that.

The role of an instructor is to train a team and they expect loyalty in return.

So there is no loyalty in judo now LOL?

Instructor is an ass who doesn't wants to be surpassed, when Kano surpassed his masters he was given a blessing, BJJ improved from generation through generation by crosstraining. I guess its different in BJJ, they don't want students to open their eyes.

Somehow, I do see the need of an "impartial party" to grade BJJ students.

Where would you find such impartial party in BJJ? Everyone has a horse in the race.

What race? the race to milk dollars out of people? Again its not BJJ exclusive, 3 judo associations in one country, in my hometown there are 3 shitoryu associations from 3 different japanese men who came and taught. Power and money are bitches.

 

[Rod1]

I don't care how much experience the guy had in other martial arts, that is absurd.

If he meets the criteria why not? belts are there to show that the student is capable of X. Not show time or as a treat to incentive people.

I wonder if Royce realizes or cares how offensive and disruptive he is being by playing Belt Fairy. He shouldn't need to use promotions to bribe people into attending his seminars, he's Royce freaking Gracie. Most of the people I know who do BJJ say they originally started because they saw him in UFC 1!

I wonder if you realize that they have been practicing the art for much longer that you and probably are much closer to the original criteria for promoting to certain belts.

On the other hand, he's been a black belt for so long that he might not really remember what it's like to be a lower rank. Maybe he thinks all this arguing and drama over stripes and belts is too petty for him to worry about? It's just a stripe, what's the big deal? Still, the whole thing is just weird.

Most likely, for them belts is pretty much what you tie your belt with, in my personal experience i could be a no stripe white belt forever and wouldn't care, its what i know what makes me who i am, not what i wear.

 

[lechien]

Judo, karate, TKD and many bjj associations or pretty much any MA that took the belt approach of training glasses.

I was saying that you are looking at the development of BJJ throught the eyes of a Judoka. You expect BJJ to have grading standards like Judo.

Yeah, rivalries don't exist but in BJJ right.

I never said the rivalry did not exits in other MA, I said it was the cause for people not liking other getting graded from another team

Again, its not judo, i just happen to be from judo its ALL belted MAs and this includes BJJ too, at least many schools of thought like Royces or Ricksons. They are multibred fighters, they are not guys who picked up BJJ as their first and only MA.
Once again, you are reverting to same old argument. since it is from Judo, it should be run like Judo. changing the topic to what BJJ consist of is lame.
Judo and BJJ are more similar than you think, specially when you go up the ladder, hence why Rickson and Royce are willing to rank people they see as fit.

I am passing judgement or cannot think of what are in their mind. I just pointed to the social repercussion of someone getting graded outside his team

So BJJ is defined by competition, cool, nice shit "leave ego at door" and other bs catchphrases are lies then?
If you say so! It seems you are not reading my posts.


There is no animosity in Judo, karate or any other MA? didn't knew that.

Once again, I am not making any judgement or talking about other MA. I cannot care less about any other MA

So there is no loyalty in judo now LOL?
When did I say? But nice try for putting words in my mouth so to speak
Instructor is an ass who doesn't wants to be surpassed, when Kano surpassed his masters he was given a blessing, BJJ improved from generation through generation by crosstraining. I guess its different in BJJ, they don't want students to open their eyes.

This is your opinion and I accept it. I never said I agreed at all with my description of what is happening in BJJ. I just simply type it on this thread. I wish one day when I become a BB, I will change things so stuff that I had to endure will not be passed on to my students. But then again, I would have brainwashed so much, I will end up like the rest of them. Maybe?


What race? the race to milk dollars out of people? Again its not BJJ exclusive, 3 judo associations in one country, in my hometown there are 3 shitoryu associations from 3 different japanese men who came and taught. Power and money are bitches
I think you did not understand the meaning of everyone has a horse in the race versus the idea of having an impartial grade group. But since you have 3 power group in your hometown, you can understand that the stronger group can put pressure on the "impartial" pannel to grade someone the easier way and make it harder for someone else to achieve the same formal level.

At the end, the grass seems to be always greener on the other side of the fence. I do not care about the other side.

 

[Rod1]

there is something to be said for keeping promotions within your organization. For example, your primary instructor knows your game quite well and probably understands where your game stacks up from various positions. For example, you might go into a seminar and look great from top but your guard is shit or you become a complete dead fish and give up when you give up side control/mount. These are things your instructor may know, but some guy promoting you in a seminar might not see on a given day. That's not about whoring, it's about accuracy of evaluation.

I doubt Royce would promote someone to brown or black at a seminar, lower ranked belts meet other criteria, if you read the book written by Royler and Renzo so both Carlos and Helio lineage, they consider the blue as pretty much not a newb, not a big deal, just that you know what to do in a ground fight (improve position and then sub), purple is the first "starting grade"where you start to build up techniques, brown is once you know most of the techniques but you need to master them and black is once you can do them in live sparring against competent opponents. So for them its not a big deal to hand over belts.

My old judo coach used to give away yellow and orange belts informaly, with yellow meaning you can throw his ass without worrying to hurt him and orange meaning you can put a fight resembling judo meaning a total newb, green and blue he handed them sparingly.

So for Royce giving a blue is basically saying that these guys know what BJJ is and how its fought meaning its a newb but knows the rules and the objective, in fact in said book its considered the least controversial rank, but it seems people are making a big deal out of it, they really start taking it seriously from brown and up.

In addition, there's a distinction between cross-training (as Rolls and many others have) and getting promotions. It's not like Rolls was a blue belt, then trained with a Judo guy and got a promotion through him. Not just that, but they were all one fucking family

At that time there was little difference from judo and jiujitsu at that time and that's not the point, they had no problems training under many schools and improving their game.

As Jigoro Kano pointed out, its not only about training hard, its also about training hard and experiencing as many as possible.

We may hate our guts, but in MAs we leave out egos at the doors, maybe it was lost somewhere but once you step on the mat it should be only about BJJ and everyone is training to learn/

anyway and had a fairly consistent training group where they would train with one another all the time. There is much more diversity in viewpoint and standards now, whether it be blue/purple/brown. It's like a game of telephone and the greater diversity has resulted in widely varying standards. For example, I just attended a tournament in Japan where one school handed out brown belts to essentially everyone who medal'd at purple. Guys who finished in 3rd place in small divisions are standing there with their browns while the instructors for the purples standing on the 2nd and 1st place podium are just shaking their heads.

Agreed, but in the end why make a big deal out of a belt? if belts mean nothing then its just something to tie the belt with, belts were made to prevent the art from deteriorating and to show the student level of proficiency to strangers.

I'm guessing that you think the belts are meaningless, and that's your right. However, it's not a viewpoint that everyone else is obliged to subscribe to.

Belts are not meaningless, but they are not a brand, they are supposed to tell you how much BJJ they know, not how much they have trained under john smith

 

[lechien]

.

I wonder if you realize that they have been practicing the art for much longer that you and probably are much closer to the original criteria for promoting to certain belts.

.

I am disappointed with Royce legacy.

Instead of running his own academy, he decided to travel around the world and doing seminars and grading strangers.

I wished he choosed the same path as his brother and cousins.

 

[lechien]

Belts are not meaningless, but they are not a brand, they are supposed to tell you how much BJJ they know, not how much they have trained under john smith

Now you understand why people get a blue belts so easily especially in Brasil.

and why it is frowned up to see guys getting belts from "strangers".

Once you are a blue belt, you belong to a team.

Someone going around and giving blue belt is a smart move and has nothing to do with technical level.

 

[Fedorzilla]

I doubt Royce would promote someone to brown or black at a seminar, lower ranked belts meet other criteria, if you read the book written by Royler and Renzo so both Carlos and Helio lineage, they consider the blue as pretty much not a newb, not a big deal, just that you know what to do in a ground fight (improve position and then sub), purple is the first "starting grade"where you start to build up techniques, brown is once you know most of the techniques but you need to master them and black is once you can do them in live sparring against competent opponents. So for them its not a big deal to hand over belts.

So for Royce giving a blue is basically saying that these guys know what BJJ is and how its fought meaning its a newb but knows the rules and the objective, in fact in said book its considered the least controversial rank, but it seems people are making a big deal out of it, they really start taking it seriously from brown and up.

I suppose that's fair. However, if you are a school that has a higher standard for your blues (they do exist) and out of nowhere one of them comes back from a weekend trip wearing a blue belt and you don't consider them to meet that standard in spite of Royce's opinion it puts them in a difficult position. Either they confront the student and say "we don't think you're there, don't come in here with that thing again" or they let Royce's belt stand. In the latter case, they're having their standards diluted.

At the end of the day, though, this is no different from when you have someone move in from another school who got his belt there and the new instructor doesn't feel he deserves that rank.

 

[lechien]

I grew up in BJJ in the wrong generation.

Blue belts meant to so much back in the days and still does in places.

 

[nefti]

Originally Posted by Rod1
I doubt Royce would promote someone to brown or black at a seminar, lower ranked belts meet other criteria, if you read the book written by Royler and Renzo so both Carlos and Helio lineage, they consider the blue as pretty much not a newb, not a big deal, just that you know what to do in a ground fight (improve position and then sub), purple is the first "starting grade"where you start to build up techniques, brown is once you know most of the techniques but you need to master them and black is once you can do them in live sparring against competent opponents. So for them its not a big deal to hand over belts.

So for Royce giving a blue is basically saying that these guys know what BJJ is and how its fought meaning its a newb but knows the rules and the objective, in fact in said book its considered the least controversial rank, but it seems people are making a big deal out of it, they really start taking it seriously from brown and up.

that would be fine if they were his students. The problem is him giving belts to OTHER people's students. Heck even Relson told Royce never to do that again.

 

[Gumbi_guard]

I grew up in BJJ in the wrong generation.

Blue belts meant to so much back in the days and still does in places.

Agree. White belt for 3 years before I got my blue belt over 4 years ago.