International Ontario Considering Privatization to Deal with ER Crisis

French canadians against pipelines and cheap hydro power projects..
Cool stuff......

Canada does have not lesser natural resources than Russia.
Maybe even more....
Cos not all is reaserched in depth ....there decades should be worked diligently to evalue all this...
 
I have nothing wrong with a private option, but when the solution is to rent space from hospitals for procedures, it’s a conflict of interest imo. Sure you can put in checks to ensure more than the allotted space isn’t required. But if it’s lucrative enough, have them build their own hospitals and but their own equipment and meet all of the requirements.


we need to manage COIs. Not eliminate them, b/c we cant.

so you'd prefer an OR at a major hospital siting emply b/c the public system doesn't have enough surgeons or nurses to staff it?
 
we need to manage COIs. Not eliminate them, b/c we cant.

so you'd prefer an OR at a major hospital siting emply b/c the public system doesn't have enough surgeons or nurses to staff it?
Govt managing Coi’s never ends well.
Not sure why the OR would be empty.
 
Does this mean we can finally abort Justin Trudeau for the good of the civilized world.
 
For as long as I can remember wait times and staffing having been an issue more often than not.
My Dr referred me to a specialist and told me it would probably at least 6 months before you get a call! Lots of help that is.
I think Dougie was floating partial privatization from the get go. To give people an "option". I like it in theory and people here, if they have the money do go to the US for treatment. Plus we lose a lot of Dr's and nurses to the US because private lays better. Might keep more people here.
 
I am not convinced anyone had to wait 3 days to get xray results for a broken leg.

When I blew out my knee, I had an xray and CT done that day. Sure, I was at the hospital for ~6 hours, but I left with the thousands of dollars it would cost to get xrays and an MRI in the USA in my pocket.

My step-mother's sister has cancer of the endocrine system and has tumors on her liver. After a lengthy screening process, she qualified for a rare specialized treatment that was not available in our Province. She had to cover her travel expenses but after 4 treatments she owed Candian Healthcare nothing.

My uncle had colon cancer that required many treatments. He received immediate care which cost him nothing.

My Dad tore his rotator cuff. It took him a number of months to see the surgeon, partially due to the timing of his injury - right as the first wave of covid hit - but he was in no pain and was able to live a mostly normal life. They operated to reattach and repair the damage at 0 cost to him.

People bitch and moan about the Canadian Healthcare system because it takes them months to see a specialist due to relatively minor injuries. This is especially true for people living in remote areas. Meanwhile, everyone is seen, everyone is treated, the most important cases take priority, and no one goes bankrupt.

I'm not saying there aren't problems with our system, because there are many, but hearing stories about waiting 3 days to get results for a broken leg reaches the limits of my credulity.

I read the current President of the USA nearly had to mortgage his house in order to pay for his son's cancer treatment.

That wouldn't happen in Canada.

You're hilariously wrong. Canadian healthcare is highly variable depending in which province and area of that province you live in. You live in a lucky area and you're generalizing your experience thinking it represents all of the country; it doesn't. In many parts of Canada, the service is beyond abysmal.
 
You're hilariously wrong. Canadian healthcare is highly variable depending in which province and area of that province you live in. You live in a lucky area and you're generalizing your experience thinking it represents all of the country; it doesn't. In many parts of Canada, the service is beyond abysmal.

Tell me more about where I live/lived and what experiences I've had.
 
Tell me more about where I live/lived and what experiences I've had.

You just did. And somehow you feel entitled to accuse other Canadians of lying when they share their real experiences of having received poor service because you had *great* service all the time apparently. Good for you, asshole.
 
Tell me more about where I live/lived and what experiences I've had.

you literally just told people your experience and your families exp with the canadian healthcare system.......
 
You just did. And somehow you feel entitled to accuse other Canadians of lying when they share their real experiences of having received poor service because you had *great* service all the time apparently. Good for you, asshole.

Ok, lunatic, let's take a closer look at what you're objecting to.

You said:

You're hilariously wrong.

I said:

Everyone is seen, everyone is treated, the most important cases take priority, and no one goes bankrupt.

What am I wrong about exactly? Be specific and keep your commentary related to what I actually said.

You said:

Canadian healthcare is highly variable depending in which province and area of that province you live in.

I said:

People bitch and moan about the Canadian Healthcare system because it takes them months to see a specialist due to relatively minor injuries. This is especially true for people living in remote areas.

So we agree. Are we both wrong? It seems more likely to me that you are an idiot.

Do you believe someone had a broken leg and had to wait 3 days for xray results? That would be more evidence that you are an idiot.

I live in a remote area of Canada where resources are extremely limited. You have literally no idea what you're talking about but here you are aggro as fuck.

Maybe you should see your doctor at no charge to you. Hopefully, that doctor will write a prescription for you to go fuck yourself.
 
we're talking regular CANadians w/o status, bud
 
I am not convinced anyone had to wait 3 days to get xray results for a broken leg.

When I blew out my knee, I had an xray and CT done that day. Sure, I was at the hospital for ~6 hours, but I left with the thousands of dollars it would cost to get xrays and an MRI in the USA in my pocket.

My step-mother's sister has cancer of the endocrine system and has tumors on her liver. After a lengthy screening process, she qualified for a rare specialized treatment that was not available in our Province. She had to cover her travel expenses but after 4 treatments she owed Candian Healthcare nothing.

My uncle had colon cancer that required many treatments. He received immediate care which cost him nothing.

My Dad tore his rotator cuff. It took him a number of months to see the surgeon, partially due to the timing of his injury - right as the first wave of covid hit - but he was in no pain and was able to live a mostly normal life. They operated to reattach and repair the damage at 0 cost to him.

People bitch and moan about the Canadian Healthcare system because it takes them months to see a specialist due to relatively minor injuries. This is especially true for people living in remote areas. Meanwhile, everyone is seen, everyone is treated, the most important cases take priority, and no one goes bankrupt.

I'm not saying there aren't problems with our system, because there are many, but hearing stories about waiting 3 days to get results for a broken leg reaches the limits of my credulity.

I read the current President of the USA nearly had to mortgage his house in order to pay for his son's cancer treatment.

That wouldn't happen in Canada.

Hey everyone, remember when I said "our approach to public health care only keeps getting a pass from our citizens because Canadians are like seals trained to say "At least it is better than the American system!" any time someone points out that our system is mediocre to shit"? Well, here's one of those trained seals. The guy talks about things that happened and makes five separate remarks about the American healthcare system as if it were the only one in the world to compare ourselves to.

Meanwhile, in reality and the rest of the world:

"But with Canadian health care tempting our southern neighbours, it’s a good time to ask if Canada itself, which also ranks poorly in these international comparisons, is using the right model. After all, there are numerous universal systems across the developed world, from Europe to Japan. Most of them have avoided Canada’s epic wait-times, outdated equipment, and shortages of staff and facilities that have led to “hallway medicine.” These more successful systems’ main difference with Canada is simply that they allow the private sector to pitch in.(5)

For example, the CWF surveyed what percent of elective surgery patients had waited four months or longer in the past two years. US wait times were much better than Canada’s, with only 3% of American patients having waited four months, compared to 18% here. But the universal systems that do maintain a strong role for private insurance actually put in US-style numbers: In Switzerland, only 6% had waited four months or longer, in the Netherlands just 4%, and in Germany 0%.(6) These numbers suggest that it is possible to eliminate waiting times while maintaining universal coverage.
"


Canada’s Health Care Woes: Waiting Lists, Outdated Equipment, Staff Shortages – IEDM/MEI

My wife is over two years out to see a specialist for an ear condition that is getting continually worse - pain, hearing loss, triggers migraines which prevent her from doing much at all - and neither us nor the doctor she saw over two years ago can tell us what it is or if it's serious or not. People who trip over themselves to defend our lackluster healthcare are useful idiots when campaign time comes around and a politician mentions that the opposition is trying to "Americanize our healthcare system," because they completely ignore that, on the global stage, our healthcare is both expensive and achieves poor results compared to other universal healthcare. Our healthcare does a bad job, and I'm really tired of the American bogeyman used to distract from that.

And yes, @Halifax - good point about the administrative creep. I honestly think that's a common problem with many public systems in general, because there is little to no incentive to remove people from positions, but increased incentives to do more. More, as in more record keeping, more special interest items, more oversight, more committees, more more more - until the people who do "more" outnumber the people who do the job. When it's tough to fire and the money you're spending isn't money you have to produce from the institution you're running you have an incentive to keep adding things and rarely to become more efficient at what you're doing - and politicians are always there to promise "more." I've seen this happen in the University system to a degree you wouldn't believe in the past twenty years.
 
Last edited:
we're talking regular CANadians w/o status, bud

I'm English/Irish not living on a reserve.

I have lived in 3 Provinces and experienced all sorts of issues with the Canadian Healthcare system. I said in my first post that there are plenty of issues with the system.

I'm just a realist. I'm not a crybaby doom and gloomer that can't understand why a system that takes care of everyone is stressed accordingly.
 
Hey everyone, remember when I said "our approach to public health care only keeps getting a pass from our citizens because Canadians are like seals trained to say "At least it is better than the American system!" any time someone points out that our system is mediocre to shit"? Well, here's one of those trained seals.

Meanwhile, in reality:

"But with Canadian health care tempting our southern neighbours, it’s a good time to ask if Canada itself, which also ranks poorly in these international comparisons, is using the right model. After all, there are numerous universal systems across the developed world, from Europe to Japan. Most of them have avoided Canada’s epic wait-times, outdated equipment, and shortages of staff and facilities that have led to “hallway medicine.” These more successful systems’ main difference with Canada is simply that they allow the private sector to pitch in.(5)

For example, the CWF surveyed what percent of elective surgery patients had waited four months or longer in the past two years. US wait times were much better than Canada’s, with only 3% of American patients having waited four months, compared to 18% here. But the universal systems that do maintain a strong role for private insurance actually put in US-style numbers: In Switzerland, only 6% had waited four months or longer, in the Netherlands just 4%, and in Germany 0%.(6) These numbers suggest that it is possible to eliminate waiting times while maintaining universal coverage.
"


Canada’s Health Care Woes: Waiting Lists, Outdated Equipment, Staff Shortages – IEDM/MEI

My wife is over two years out to see a specialist for an ear condition that is getting continually worse - pain, hearing loss, triggers migraines which prevent her from doing much at all - and neither us nor the doctor she saw over two years ago can tell us what it is or if it's serious or not. People who trip over themselves to defend our lackluster healthcare are useful idiots when campaign time comes around and a politician mentions that the opposition is trying to "Americanize our healthcare system," because they completely ignore that, on the global stage, our healthcare is both expensive and achieves poor results compared to other universal healthcare. Our healthcare does a bad job, and I'm really tired of the American bogeyman used to distract from that.

And yes, @Halifax - good point about the administrative creep. I honestly think that's a common problem with many public systems in general, because there is little to no incentive to remove people from positions, but increased incentives to do more. More, as in more record keeping, more special interest items, more oversight, more committees, more more more - until the people who do "more" outnumber the people who do the job. When it's tough to fire and the money you're spending isn't money you have to produce from the institution you're running you have an incentive to keep adding things and rarely to become more efficient at what you're doing - and politicians are always there to promise "more." I've seen this happen in the University system to a degree you wouldn't believe in the past twenty years.

Just two minutes after you posted this message I got a call that an appointment to see a neurosurgeon I have been waiting 11 months for has been canceled and pushed off to the next week, right in the middle of my vacation.

Do I think our system needs drastic improvement? Absolutely. We can do a lot better.

But the OP said he waited 3 days to get xray results for a broken leg. That is #1 bullshit and needs to be called out, along with all of the other woe is me crybaby shit that gets posted about our healthcare system.
 
Live in Ontario. Can confirm that our system is broken. Hours long wait in hospitals. Shit quality. Wait months to see specialists. So fucking slow.

My relatives in the states ask "why do you have to wait 3 days to get x ray results to know if you have a broken leg. Isn't that urgent?"

I'm amazed Americans can go to a hospital and in the same day get an x ray, MRI and get the results same day. Holy fuck.
That is and isn’t true. For regular X-rays we also usually wait 3 days. For an emergency though, yeah it will come back fast. The wait isn’t for the X-ray itself, it’s for the DR to read it. Same thing for MRIs and actually getting an MRI is usually a long process too.
 
Canada is so fucked that when a govt does not explicitly say NO to private health care, the sky is falling.

And get this to all you chicken littles- 30% of our medical system is already private!

Something needs to change. Our current system is broken across the entire country.

and get this- more than 1/3 of ALL tax dollars go to our broken health care system and we have a lack of nurses, family docs, ER closing and so on.

Serious question- how much more cash will it take to materially improve the system?

Our dictator has doubled our national debt since 2015 and we are all worse off.
<PlusJuan>

Mic drop
 
Just two minutes after you posted this message I got a call that an appointment to see a neurosurgeon I have been waiting 11 months for has been canceled and pushed off to the next week, right in the middle of my vacation.

Do I think our system needs drastic improvement? Absolutely. We can do a lot better.

But the OP said he waited 3 days to get xray results for a broken leg. That is #1 bullshit and needs to be called out, along with all of the other woe is me crybaby shit that gets posted about our healthcare system.

You know, I only have one experience with X-rays, and it's this. It was a day in 2017 and I woke up on a Friday, after a persistent really bad cold/cough, coughing up blood. I went into a clinic. I waited there for two hours. When I got into the doctor, she gave me a referral to an x-ray clinic. I contacted them and they had a slot for me on Monday. I went back to the first clinic and complained that I was, literally, coughing up blood and I was given nothing and told to wait until Monday for a scan and the woman gave me some sample inhalers for what she thought it might be. Monday rolled around, I got my scan. The clinic received the results on Wednesday and I found out I had pneumonia and they got me on a few different medications. At that point I'd spent the weekend coughing so hard that I tore a muscle along my rib cage and I still feel it to this day. The reason for the delay was that it turned out that coughing up blood didn't classify me as in urgent need for a chest X-ray. As you're going on about how it's impossible that a broken leg didn't get scanned right away it makes me wonder - what, exactly, are they classifying as non-urgent care?

I can't speak to how well X-rays are done in Canada in general - but that's my experience. What I also know is that there is widely reported delays lasting weeks on various types of medical images. What's more, our medical system is so overloaded that we have been delaying vital cancer screenings which has resulted in people dying of cancer in Canada. On a personal front, my infant daughter had a variety of early tests and screenings either done through Zoom recently or outright canceled. When you insist that something like a leg x-ray taking that long is impossible I'm not really inclined to believe you given the things that our healthcare is documented as currently doing. Pair that with you doing the comparison to American healthcare five times, you really do come off as one of those trained seals, spouting "BUT AMERICA!" every time someone critiques our healthcare - which, again, is demonstrably lackluster on the global scene.
 
You know, I only have one experience with X-rays, and it's this. It was a day in 2017 and I woke up on a Friday, after a persistent really bad cold/cough, coughing up blood. I went into a clinic. I waited there for two hours. When I got into the doctor, she gave me a referral to an x-ray clinic. I contacted them and they had a slot for me on Monday. I went back to the first clinic and complained that I was, literally, coughing up blood and I was given nothing and told to wait until Monday for a scan and the woman gave me some sample inhalers for what she thought it might be. Monday rolled around, I got my scan. The clinic received the results on Wednesday and I found out I had pneumonia and they got me on a few different medications. At that point I'd spent the weekend coughing so hard that I tore a muscle along my rib cage and I still feel it to this day. The reason for the delay was that it turned out that coughing up blood didn't classify me as in urgent need for a chest X-ray. As you're going on about how it's impossible that a broken leg didn't get scanned right away it makes me wonder - what, exactly, are they classifying as non-urgent care?

I can't speak to how well X-rays are done in Canada in general - but that's my experience. What I also know is that there is widely reported delays lasting weeks on various types of medical images. What's more, our medical system is so overloaded that we have been delaying vital cancer screenings which has resulted in people dying of cancer in Canada. On a personal front, my infant daughter had a variety of early tests and screenings either done through Zoom recently or outright canceled. When you insist that something like a leg x-ray taking that long is impossible I'm not really inclined to believe you given the things that our healthcare is documented as currently doing. Pair that with you doing the comparison to American healthcare five times, you really do come off as one of those trained seals, spouting "BUT AMERICA!" every time someone critiques our healthcare - which, again, is demonstrably lackluster on the global scene.

The post I originally replied to made the American Canadian comparison.

Your 2017 experience sounds awful. Was it a walk-in clinic, or a hospital?

Do you have a family doctor?
 
I have nothing wrong with a private option, but when the solution is to rent space from hospitals for procedures, it’s a conflict of interest imo. Sure you can put in checks to ensure more than the allotted space isn’t required. But if it’s lucrative enough, have them build their own hospitals and but their own equipment and meet all of the requirements.

They don't even use all of the operating rooms. Plenty of them are empty and surgeons aren't working since the government will only fund so many procedures in a given period of time.

The problem generally isn't facilities. It's budget.
 
Last edited:
You know, I only have one experience with X-rays, and it's this. It was a day in 2017 and I woke up on a Friday, after a persistent really bad cold/cough, coughing up blood. I went into a clinic. I waited there for two hours. When I got into the doctor, she gave me a referral to an x-ray clinic. I contacted them and they had a slot for me on Monday. I went back to the first clinic and complained that I was, literally, coughing up blood and I was given nothing and told to wait until Monday for a scan and the woman gave me some sample inhalers for what she thought it might be. Monday rolled around, I got my scan. The clinic received the results on Wednesday and I found out I had pneumonia and they got me on a few different medications. At that point I'd spent the weekend coughing so hard that I tore a muscle along my rib cage and I still feel it to this day. The reason for the delay was that it turned out that coughing up blood didn't classify me as in urgent need for a chest X-ray. As you're going on about how it's impossible that a broken leg didn't get scanned right away it makes me wonder - what, exactly, are they classifying as non-urgent care?

I can't speak to how well X-rays are done in Canada in general - but that's my experience. What I also know is that there is widely reported delays lasting weeks on various types of medical images. What's more, our medical system is so overloaded that we have been delaying vital cancer screenings which has resulted in people dying of cancer in Canada. On a personal front, my infant daughter had a variety of early tests and screenings either done through Zoom recently or outright canceled. When you insist that something like a leg x-ray taking that long is impossible I'm not really inclined to believe you given the things that our healthcare is documented as currently doing. Pair that with you doing the comparison to American healthcare five times, you really do come off as one of those trained seals, spouting "BUT AMERICA!" every time someone critiques our healthcare - which, again, is demonstrably lackluster on the global scene.
Why didn't you go to an emergency room?
 
Back
Top