ONE: Northcutt KOd in 29 Seconds

[tehMoose]

I find this funny because One have brainwashed Sage to tell vsd things about how UFC treat fighters and then he got brutally Ko d by an unknown brazilian who is 37 years old

Would be like to send Anthony Joshua to China for more money and then losing against an unknown hw asian

Don't forget that Chatri is desperate to make One huge and he needs American fighters to make his org legit

Unknown brazilian? Only casuals don't know who Cosmo is

 

[KarateStylist]

I don't mean to offend but I watch that video and I don't see striking that would work in an MMA context (and why should it? they aren't training for MMA or trying to apply technique to MMA anyways). These guys are recklessly blitzing to strike first knowing that they won't get grappled and the second they land the action will be paused. They are off-balance when blitzing and their punching technique is often a lot of flailing arm-parries with no hooks/uppercuts/jabs (and even the lunging straights tend to be off-balance).

Well, MMAnalyst, the response to all my recent posts has been overwhelming.... But there is no way for me to resolve this over the internet. You see what you know & understand, that's ok.

Karate has tons of great nuances that can be utilized for MMA. The issue with guys that have really deep skills in one field of MMA (whether striking art like Karate or Muy Thai or grappling art like BJJ or Judo) is that they become over-reliant on it and don't round out their stylistic short-comings. As you go up against the more elite those guys tend to be well-rounded PLUS have really deep skills in particular fields, so can expose those short-comings more easily.

Sure. When we move from the conventional kumite standards we karateka have to apply the curriculum in a different way to different standards which will be experienced in MMA.

There isn't one style that is perfect for MMA, it's all nuanced adaptation based on opponent and understanding your own skills/capabilities.

Karate is much better for MMA than any other of the popular styles we now see. Because of your thinking however, people go into karate thinking it's recklessly blitzing to strike first, and the second they land the action will be paused ,etc. IOW Money-see-monkey do. That's MMA's dumb thinkging nearly across the board. Then karate won't work well because your'e just doing physical stuff you've seen and repeated.

Like your entire comment. Karate's traditions can't be truely experience & absorbed with internet labtop discourse. That merely a media happening....

Which you are skilled @. So +1 for media.

 

[KarateStylist]

You could honestly say that every successful UFC fighter (except for the grinders like Jon Fitch) was supported by UFC match-making. It's just how it goes when you have a look/style they want to get behind, they aren't going to give you the toughest possible match-ups immediately if they want to make as much money as possible off your career.

Sure. But then media raves how great a prospect so&so is when he's fighting cans. Run-of-the-mill. It's good business planning. Doesn't confirm some star quality.

I wouldn't say that Wonderboy got lazy, I would argue that he reached the limit of his athleticism and depth of adapting his skillset. It's not like at 30+ years old he is going to add offensive wrestling, submission grappling, high-level pocket-boxing, etc. to his game, when he came to the UFC he was already at his athletic peak and there is a limit to how much you can change your style/learn new skillsets.

Well, then with your latter sentence, you are just confirming what I'm observing. Especially since you lectured me below how necessary and important you're understanding of how karate applies under the MMA formula is. I agree you are heading in the right direction. Karata takes a truly considered approach to understand and then dedicated study and training to assimilate. It's a different way of training compared to what MMA camps do, on another plane.

I was actually at the 2nd WB fight (meant to see Khabib vs. Ferguson....we all know how that came through lol) and I don't disagree with anything you say. Woodley clearly won both fights, clearly did the most damage, and showed he had the approach to beat WB by trying to save energy and bait WB to over-commit to leading against the fence.

Ok, I put up some video on how karate fighter have the capacity to address that in principle. Along with some other posts about how to train karate. I can't convey any more over the internet. You have to experience the training personally and come to the realization of how this works. You see one thing and I understand what's behind the outward appearances.

Yes, Woodley won both fights martially. Wonderboy showed his potential each time, fell far short of that.

The Till fight was a travesty from an entertainment stand-point but I felt it was clear WB won; he made Till chase him and was able to constantly angle off and land counters. Till gave WB the fight he wanted until the 5th round when he actually committed to pressuring with his jab.

.

Yeah, was not an entertaining fight. I hold the other opinion, Wonderboy was terrible karate wise in that fight. Again, we have to get into this more than we can typing into a forum. I have literally thousands of hours of training and study over many years... a keyboard cannot do justice to that... what's transpired.

It seems crazy that you think WB didn't change his training after the Matt Brown loss - he came back after that with much better understanding of using his footwork in an MMA context. Before that he was over-reliant on his ability to keep guys at bay with feints or to be able to reset after landing, but Brown would just walk through the feints or initial strikes and keep on attacking him into the clinch. He looked unprepared for the clinch, unprepared for the transitions, and unprepared for the grappling.

Ok, I didn't appraise Wonderboy by his 'MMA footwork,' etc. He did probably work on his grappling. We see examples of this in the kumite today, although it doesn't look like what you want to see. We are taught in the karate curriculum how to deal with grappling type approaches. It's generally not in depth among the popular styles; nevertheless the principles are broached. Moreover, certain style of karate specialize in grappling. It's the underlying principles of karate training though that provide one with a conceptual answer which you then must adopt to the particular situation.

And I'm not ruling out cross training in other styles of martial arts. I'm all for it. But not at the expense of mastering a sound working knowledge of karate.

Wonderboy just got KO'd for the first time in his entire career against Pettis, so it's not like he's been getting pasted (though to be fair I don't see how he survived those punches against Woodley, so his style has left him open to boxing counters frequently throughout his career).

Nonetheless, Dana's little pre-fight talks about how not to go out there and destroy each other's card filling potential surely have happened. In the Brown fight, Brown came close to being finished but he certainly had Wonderboy at his mercy several times. I really give big props to Matt Brown for his sportsmanship in that fight. Guy's a great, great example of the MMA competitor.

Of course there are more factors than speed at play but I think we can both agree that speed is the most important factor in a sport based around landing first. If two guys are equally disciplined/skilled the faster guy will pretty much always win in striking, that's a pretty big physical edge to have to apply technique with.

WRONG. This what a sporting enthusiast and media observer sees looking from the outside. Again, this can't be explained beyond your understanding on a computer screen. The material I put up can only serve as food for thought, for one's individual further investigation & study.

You're welcome.

 

[KarateStylist]

I appreciate you providing such a long and detailed response throughout this thread. You clearly know a shit-ton about Karate so can offer a lot of more nuance in discussing that martial art then myself. That being said I want to offer some counter-points to expand the conversation - I hope you don't take this as me telling you that you are wrong, I'm just offering my own perspective/analysis (and maybe you will disagree but I'd like continue the conversation).

You're doing an excellent job of fielding the MMA point of view. Camps are not having these types of MMA discussions in the depth you are presenting. It's a big failing. Karate schools don't usually either, at least not the ones I've attended. The course of training fills in the blanks with one's individualized effort.

I'll interject here. Sage's karate background failed miserably during his MMA time. Concentrate on the striking which Sage's losses fit right in.

The overall reason Sage failed is the he views the fundamentals of karate just the same way you do. Leaping around doing fast stuff. That's so shallow and hollow it may work against lesser athletes and the young & uninitiated into karate's sophistication. It's going to be a massive fail against the Matt Brown's and Cosmo Alexandres of the world. It's going to get trounced big time @ any JKA championship.

 

[trentkelp]

Well, MMAnalyst, the response to all my recent posts has been overwhelming.... But there is no way for me to resolve this over the internet. You see what you know & understand, that's ok.



Sure. When we move from the conventional kumite standards we karateka have to apply the curriculum in a different way to different standards which will be experienced in MMA.



Karate is much better for MMA than any other of the popular styles we now see. Because of your thinking however, people go into karate thinking it's recklessly blitzing to strike first, and the second they land the action will be paused ,etc. IOW Money-see-monkey do. That's MMA's dumb thinkging nearly across the board. Then karate won't work well because your'e just doing physical stuff you've seen and repeated.

Like your entire comment. Karate's traditions can't be truely experience & absorbed with internet labtop discourse. That merely a media happening....

Which you are skilled @. So +1 for media.

Karate is Shit! Go watch the K-1 when whey put up Karate and tai kwon do experts in there against....Well Real fighters! You have no clue!

 

[KarateStylist]

I appreciate you providing such a long and detailed response throughout this thread. You clearly know a sh*t-ton about Karate so can offer a lot of more nuance in discussing that martial art then myself. That being said I want to offer some counter-points to expand the conversation - I hope you don't take this as me telling you that you are wrong, I'm just offering my own perspective/analysis (and maybe you will disagree but I'd like continue the conversation).

I know the curriculum in principle very well through the black-belt level. I'm not any kind of true master level, which quite frankly is relatively rare here in the US.

Here, I will pose a thought piece on what makes kata work over MMA. It's a tough test.
White Belt - One Step Sparring
102,259 views


MasterChongsTKD
Published on May 2, 2010

Now compare what the TKD instructor has the black-belt level students here do, and what Sage did against Cosmo. Sage did TAM kickboxing stuff, and poorly @ that. Let me caution that there is a ton of body, mind and spirit going on here.

Now MMA will come back and say:

1. The rigid stance can be low kicked
2. The block is too slow to work in a real fight
3. Chambering leaves your head open to a ko punch,
4. The straight punch is too simple to work against boxing head movement.
5. The Kiahp is just a silly yell anybody can do
6. It's all a pre-arranged exercise, no one stands in front of you and holds their arm out still
7. And on & on and on and on & on... finding fault.

Yet this is precisely how I beat boxer stylists, in principle. So is is traditional karate training is dumb, outdated, outmoded, impractical, idiotic; OR is it the people looking @ karate tradition superficially who are dumb, outdated, outmoded, impractical, idiotic? Were the karate masters of Okinawa deficient compared to the Pat Miletich and Firas Zahabi?

Every traditional karate curriculum from Okinawa to Japan to Korean vintage has 1-steps in their curriculum. Why?

One has to be willing to investigate seriously objectively what the masters of old and Japan & Korea of today are presenting to you as martial arts effective training. Sage IMO, never came close to doing this when he was in 'karate.'

 

[KarateStylist]

Karate is Shit! Go watch the K-1 when whey put up Karate and tai kwon do experts in there against....Well Real fighters! You have no clue!

Yep, you're completely correct in your MMA land.

 

[Clippy]

But sayan hair and side flips with special effects

This can not be

 

[trentkelp]

Karate is just cheap baby sitting for kids!

 

[KarateStylist]

I'm mainly interested on how martial arts work in an MMA context. Karate teaches so many techniques for so many situations, but it doesn't seem to teach how to apply those techniques in a never-ending flowing model (i.e. endlessly chaining techniques together in a free-flowing format).

You have, are doing a fine job of defining issues and looking into the issues. But to take just one point of your excellent discussion post, this is COMPLETELY WRONG. And I can see how you are coming to this conclusion. It's easy to have this confusion. I'll post another homework question, two videos. Good luck.
Taikyoku Shodan Shotokan Karate Kata
529,397 views


Karl-Hans König
Published on Mar 12, 2009


Taikyoku Shodan, performed by Dennis Kipper, 1. Dan, posted by Sensei Karl-Hans König, 7. Dan,Fudokan and 7. Dan Shotokan Shotokan Karate Kata, Shotokan Karate Dojo Maulburg, www.shotokan-karate-dojo.com

So why is karate starting white belts with this kata, a Shotokan rendition? When you can answer this question, you will have answered all I have proffered about karate tradition and it's effectiveness in MMA. Moreover, there are varying renditions of this by other Shotokan stylists and by other styles all over the internet, including the full contact kumite Kyokushim karate. Why all the variations? Just expanded the homework assignment much more.

One practice in training kata is to have the instructor voice a command & count for each step. Here the practitioner does the kata without any count, on his own. Why have a count and why not have a count? That is only one the the many & myriad aspects of traditional karate training & kata practice.

MMA constantly and continually pans thils kata as overly-simplistic, impractical, and for kids learning to do some basic techinque. "Kiddy kata," they ridicule it. The Okinawan Karate Master who created Shotokan karate, the most popular and practiced karate on the planet, advocates the opposite. WHY? Who's right, MMA or the originator of Shotokan karate?

No one posed these questions to me when I started karate. The point being one has to invest themselves into truly understanding the art. Firas and Miletich can't do if for you.

Post note: BTW, Sage's super TAM training taught him nothing about 'flow,' not that boxing can't. The guy's anxioulsy evading, attempting to move away from Cosmo putting up NOTHING in the way of any effective technique. NOTHING. And TAM sports two recent UFC Champions, now ceremoniously both dethroned and scrambling to return. Guess they got out-flowed....

 

[KarateStylist]

Karate is just cheap baby sitting for kids!

Short on cartoons too!

 

[KarateStylist]

I'm mainly interested on how martial arts work in an MMA context. Karate teaches so many techniques for so many situations, but it doesn't seem to teach how to apply those techniques in a never-ending flowing model (i.e. endlessly chaining techniques together in a free-flowing format).

The Importance of Kata in Karate Training
4,066 views


UltimateTraining
Published on Sep 13, 2013


Learn theimportance or Kata in karate training. Check out our complete white-black belt home study course at http://www.blackbeltathome.com

Here's an explaination of kata which the instructor ('Scary Larry' of Ultimate Training - lol) makes some valid statements. REally however, he speech is populated with vauge descriptiors, metaphors and generalities that leave on completely in the dark. Like he probably is. So again, thats' the challenge. Can't rely on the so-called masters of karate... it's up to you to discern what's mastery and what's someone's mumbo jumbo / hollow interpretation.

Karate is for the intelligently thinking person. Male or female. I suggest, if you are truly serious, start with some of the JKA materials. Then sign up for karate @ a school of you choice. The go to the dojo & train seriously. Maybe even get a manual and read it. If you think this is intelligent training... my advice is forget karate altogether...
Stephen Thompson's UFC 209 Open Workout
11,448 views


MMAWeekly.com
Published on Mar 1, 2017
Check out Stephen "Wonderboy" Thomspon's UFC 209 open workout on Wednesday, March 1, in Las Vegas.

This is how Stephen Thompson won his MMA fights; AND IS WHY STEPHEN THOMPSON IS NOW LOSING HIS MMA FIGHTS.

Good luck.

 

[Yodsanan]

legit thought KarateStylist was banned years ago.

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

Well, MMAnalyst, the response to all my recent posts has been overwhelming.... But there is no way for me to resolve this over the internet. You see what you know & understand, that's ok.

Sure. When we move from the conventional kumite standards we karateka have to apply the curriculum in a different way to different standards which will be experienced in MMA.

Karate is much better for MMA than any other of the popular styles we now see. Because of your thinking however, people go into karate thinking it's recklessly blitzing to strike first, and the second they land the action will be paused ,etc. IOW Money-see-monkey do. That's MMA's dumb thinkging nearly across the board. Then karate won't work well because your'e just doing physical stuff you've seen and repeated.

Like your entire comment. Karate's traditions can't be truely experience & absorbed with internet labtop discourse. That merely a media happening....

Which you are skilled @. So +1 for media.

You seem incredibly knowledgeable about Karate, but you also seem incredibly biased (though I would expect that from your username lol). Again, not to shit-talk but you don't really back up your above statements with any actual evidence.

When you state "Karate is much better for MMA than any other of the popular styles" I would expect you to show me a large number of incredibly successful MMA fighters that have Karate as a basis for their style. But you can't, because there are incredibly few that have been able to transition to the elite level with that as their base style because of the stylistic short-comings. Wonderboy is the most successful as "pure-karate" stylist (close to, had to make a number of adaptations), while Machida is the most successful as a "hybrid karate" stylist in their approaches; that's kind of it, lots of guys from McGregor to Patricio Freire use karate-style nuances within their striking approach but they have implemented boxing defense and hybrid attacks/grappling threats to add layers of nuance.

It's not "MMA dumb-thinking" as you choose to write it off, it's called "practical application of applied knowledge" - i.e. we've seen hundreds of style vs. style fights and Karate by itself has lost 90%+ of the time versus May Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, BJJ if the competitors are of equal size and athleticism. When we get to elite MMA the Karate guys rarely ascend past the lower-tier levels because they don't build other skills-sets (so they have more holes that can be exposed) and their technique's foundation of application is on limited techniques (no elbows, clinching, takedowns, grappling) with instituted breaks and resets.

There is no cage or ring, it's all open-space fighting. Once someone lands a clean strike they pause and reset. Show me the Karate guys that are sparring for long periods of time with grappling/wrestling/clinching/knees allowed and then I'll agree with you that these guys are building a well-rounded basis for a Karate style that works as applied to MMA. Karate doesn't work well by itself because as it's practiced in the context of MMA as it doesn't account for all these other variables in technique and scoring, which makes it incredibly limited in it's application. Karate works great against other styles in a "karate rule-set" but in Mixed Rule Sets it doesn't seem to be superior in any way. Under those rules it basically needs to operate as a kill-shot martial art, where if you are clinched, takedown down, or have to strike in the pocket for prolonged periods you are doomed.

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

Sure. But then media raves how great a prospect so&so is when he's fighting cans. Run-of-the-mill. It's good business planning. Doesn't confirm some star quality.

Except Wonderboy wasn't fighting cans, he was fighting former champions and title contenders in Hendricks/Rory/Masvidal/Till. Again, historical revisionism at it's finest to help you make your point.

Well, then with your latter sentence, you are just confirming what I'm observing. Especially since you lectured me below how necessary and important you're understanding of how karate applies under the MMA formula is. I agree you are heading in the right direction. Karata takes a truly considered approach to understand and then dedicated study and training to assimilate. It's a different way of training compared to what MMA camps do, on another plane.

ROFLMAO didn't realize I was lecturing you, especially when I went out of my way to literally state:

"I hope you don't take this as me telling you that you are wrong, I'm just offering my own perspective/analysis"

I guess giving an opinion that differs from yours is lecturing you though, so I better just agree with everything you state as sacrosanct

If this training method is so "super-elite" and superior to other martial arts then why isn't it being utilized as a basis for more high-level MMA fighters? Is the talent pool shallow? Do the competitors not like to cross-train in other martial arts that involve grappling? Honest questions - if you sincerely believe what you are saying you should have a good explanation for this since the cause and effect doesn't add up. Would seem pretty evident if Karate was the best base skill for MMA then we'd see far more high-level MMA fighters with that background/style....and yet we haven't for 20+ years....

Ok, I put up some video on how karate fighter have the capacity to address that in principle. Along with some other posts about how to train karate. I can't convey any more over the internet. You have to experience the training personally and come to the realization of how this works. You see one thing and I understand what's behind the outward appearances.

Yes, Woodley won both fights martially. Wonderboy showed his potential each time, fell far short of that.

Bro you honestly need to read what you are writing - it literally sums up to "if you only trained karate like I have you would see that I'm right." That's all well and good but it isn't any way to formulate an argument - it's literally like telling someone they haven't trained in the art so they don't know how effective it is. I could say the exact thing about BJJ (or any other martial art) and it would hold the same exact weight, except in my case I could post countless examples of high-level BJJ (or Muy Thai or Boxing or Wrestlers) that have transitioned that martial art effectively to high-level MMA. And yet you can't do the same with Karate. You might even be right, but that's not any way to make an argument for it.

Yeah, was not an entertaining fight. I hold the other opinion, Wonderboy was terrible karate wise in that fight. Again, we have to get into this more than we can typing into a forum. I have literally thousands of hours of training and study over many years... a keyboard cannot do justice to that... what's transpired.

Wonderboy was terrible karate-wise in fights where he got a majority draw and a split-decision lost against a top-5 all-time WW that has insanely dangerous wrestling? You really see the MMA world through rose-colored lenses, it's not going to be possible to convince someone that believes they are better than the highest-level MMA fighters we have ever seen. You have thousands of hours of training and study - could you take Wonderboy in an MMA fight? Could you even make it competitive? If you can't take him or wouldn't even make it close, then what good is all that training in the context of MMA?

Ok, I didn't appraise Wonderboy by his 'MMA footwork,' etc. He did probably work on his grappling. We see examples of this in the kumite today, although it doesn't look like what you want to see. We are taught in the karate curriculum how to deal with grappling type approaches. It's generally not in depth among the popular styles; nevertheless the principles are broached. Moreover, certain style of karate specialize in grappling. It's the underlying principles of karate training though that provide one with a conceptual answer which you then must adopt to the particular situation.

And I'm not ruling out cross training in other styles of martial arts. I'm all for it. But not at the expense of mastering a sound working knowledge of karate.

Except we almost never see high-level Karate fighters in MMA that have developed solid-grappling for Mixed Rules combat, you can literally count them on one-hand. We do however see tons of high-level BJJ/Wrestlers that have learned how to strike and tons of high-level Boxer/Muy Thai guys that have learned how to grapple and defend takedowns.

I think you are incredibly over-reliant on Karate as being an "end-all" martial art that has superior technique and counters for every approach in MMA. Just like every other martial art it has lots of benefits and lots of downsides. However it seems to formulate the mentality which you profess here, as being a "single-art" solution to a "multi-art problem." Maybe this is why we've seen such little cross-over success in MMA from Karate-based fighters, they are so confident in the superiority of their martial art that they don't cross-train and their style never adapts to become good enough to rise through the ranks of elite MMA fighters (just one theory).

Nonetheless, Dana's little pre-fight talks about how not to go out there and destroy each other's card filling potential surely have happened. In the Brown fight, Brown came close to being finished but he certainly had Wonderboy at his mercy several times. I really give big props to Matt Brown for his sportsmanship in that fight. Guy's a great, great example of the MMA competitor.

That's not how I remember it at all - I remember it being an absolutely brutal, grinding fight where Brown walked through tough shots to force the clinch and work trips and then just gas Wonderboy out from top position by always grinding and looking to do damage. I never once thought Brown was taking it easy on him or not trying to finish; Wonderboy was fighting a far more experienced guy that actually had other skillsets (like clinch-fighting and grappling) so when he was getting lit up from the outside he could just push into other positions where he was superior.

WRONG. This what a sporting enthusiast and media observer sees looking from the outside. Again, this can't be explained beyond your understanding on a computer screen. The material I put up can only serve as food for thought, for one's individual further investigation & study.

You're welcome.

Your initial posts were appreciated and offered some nuanced perspective into Karate. Your recent ones have veered into biased rants about the superiority of your preferred art without any relevant examples because of obtuse deflections (i.e. a keyboard can't do justice, you need to study thousands of hours like I have, here's a video of high-level karate guys that proves they would dominate in MMA).

You don't have to condescend to make a point with the "you're welcome" either.

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

You're doing an excellent job of fielding the MMA point of view. Camps are not having these types of MMA discussions in the depth you are presenting. It's a big failing. Karate schools don't usually either, at least not the ones I've attended. The course of training fills in the blanks with one's individualized effort.

I'll interject here. Sage's karate background failed miserably during his MMA time. Concentrate on the striking which Sage's losses fit right in.

The overall reason Sage failed is the he views the fundamentals of karate just the same way you do. Leaping around doing fast stuff. That's so shallow and hollow it may work against lesser athletes and the young & uninitiated into karate's sophistication. It's going to be a massive fail against the Matt Brown's and Cosmo Alexandres of the world. It's going to get trounced big time @ any JKA championship.

Has Sage even trained in Karate for the last 5 years? Did he ever train Karate in the context of an MMA fight? Seems to me he learned the point-fighting form-based style initially and wasn't really sparring with other striking techniques + grappling allowed over prolonged periods of combat while he was learning/progressing (just attempted to make the traditional MMA transition which is incredibly difficult coming form that background).

I don't view the fundamentals of Karate as just leaping around doing fast stuff, that's a pretty rudimentary reduction of what I had previously stated. All I said was that there is an over-reliance on landing first because of the rule-set, so guys are out of position, off-balance, open for takedowns/clinching, etc. These are just facts, the videos you posted verify that this is by nature what happens when the rules limit techniques and have you reset after landing.

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

I know the curriculum in principle very well through the black-belt level. I'm not any kind of true master level, which quite frankly is relatively rare here in the US.

Here, I will pose a thought piece on what makes kata work over MMA. It's a tough test.
White Belt - One Step Sparring
102,259 views


MasterChongsTKD
Published on May 2, 2010

Now compare what the TKD instructor has the black-belt level students here do, and what Sage did against Cosmo. Sage did TAM kickboxing stuff, and poorly @ that. Let me caution that there is a ton of body, mind and spirit going on here.

Now MMA will come back and say:

1. The rigid stance can be low kicked
2. The block is too slow to work in a real fight
3. Chambering leaves your head open to a ko punch,
4. The straight punch is too simple to work against boxing head movement.
5. The Kiahp is just a silly yell anybody can do
6. It's all a pre-arranged exercise, no one stands in front of you and holds their arm out still
7. And on & on and on and on & on... finding fault.

Yet this is precisely how I beat boxer stylists, in principle. So is is traditional karate training is dumb, outdated, outmoded, impractical, idiotic; OR is it the people looking @ karate tradition superficially who are dumb, outdated, outmoded, impractical, idiotic? Were the karate masters of Okinawa deficient compared to the Pat Miletich and Firas Zahabi?

Every traditional karate curriculum from Okinawa to Japan to Korean vintage has 1-steps in their curriculum. Why?

One has to be willing to investigate seriously objectively what the masters of old and Japan & Korea of today are presenting to you as martial arts effective training. Sage IMO, never came close to doing this when he was in 'karate.'

You are beating boxer-stylists in MMA fights? Or in striking fights with Karate-based rulesets?

I would take prime Pat Miletich or Firas Zahabi over every single Karate master from Okinawa in an MMA fight.

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

You have, are doing a fine job of defining issues and looking into the issues. But to take just one point of your excellent discussion post, this is COMPLETELY WRONG. And I can see how you are coming to this conclusion. It's easy to have this confusion. I'll post another homework question, two videos. Good luck.
Taikyoku Shodan Shotokan Karate Kata
529,397 views


Karl-Hans König
Published on Mar 12, 2009


Taikyoku Shodan, performed by Dennis Kipper, 1. Dan, posted by Sensei Karl-Hans König, 7. Dan,Fudokan and 7. Dan Shotokan Shotokan Karate Kata, Shotokan Karate Dojo Maulburg, www.shotokan-karate-dojo.com

So why is karate starting white belts with this kata, a Shotokan rendition? When you can answer this question, you will have answered all I have proffered about karate tradition and it's effectiveness in MMA. Moreover, there are varying renditions of this by other Shotokan stylists and by other styles all over the internet, including the full contact kumite Kyokushim karate. Why all the variations? Just expanded the homework assignment much more.

One practice in training kata is to have the instructor voice a command & count for each step. Here the practitioner does the kata without any count, on his own. Why have a count and why not have a count? That is only one the the many & myriad aspects of traditional karate training & kata practice.

MMA constantly and continually pans thils kata as overly-simplistic, impractical, and for kids learning to do some basic techinque. "Kiddy kata," they ridicule it. The Okinawan Karate Master who created Shotokan karate, the most popular and practiced karate on the planet, advocates the opposite. WHY? Who's right, MMA or the originator of Shotokan karate?

No one posed these questions to me when I started karate. The point being one has to invest themselves into truly understanding the art. Firas and Miletich can't do if for you.

Post note: BTW, Sage's super TAM training taught him nothing about 'flow,' not that boxing can't. The guy's anxioulsy evading, attempting to move away from Cosmo putting up NOTHING in the way of any effective technique. NOTHING. And TAM sports two recent UFC Champions, now ceremoniously both dethroned and scrambling to return. Guess they got out-flowed....

I don't think the Okinawan Karate Master or MMA is right - you make pre-conception that the same approach and style works for everyone. Not every fighter has the skills/styles to excel as a karate-based fighter, it is very important to have incredible footwork, high levels of flexibility, incredible reaction time, etc. to excel in that style. MMA is about taking what skills work for your body/mindset and fine-tuning them in the context of multi-art combat. Not every fighter can be a Karate-style fighter and not every karate-style fighter can adapt that base skillset for an MMA style fight. No single martial art has the depth of knowledge to appropriately handle all styles, it's why it's so important to learn multiple skillsets. There is literally no champion fighter that isn't well-rounded at this stage of the MMA game.

 

[KarateStylist]

I don't think the Okinawan Karate Master or MMA is right - you make pre-conception that the same approach and style works for everyone.Not every fighter has the skills/styles to excel as a karate-based fighter, it is very important to have incredible footwork, high levels of flexibility, incredible reaction time, etc. to excel in that style. No single martial art has the depth of knowledge to appropriately handle all styles, it's why it's so important to learn multiple skillsets. There is literally no champion fighter that isn't well-rounded at this stage of the MMA game.

MMAnalyst still coming on strong.

I don't think the Okinawan Karate Master or MMA is right - you make pre-conception that the same approach and style works for everyone.

Well, yes, let me back up. For those who have the potential to tap into the synthesis of bocy, mind %& spirit, the Okinawan Masters have an interpretation of how to do martial arts 'right.' For those whose capability is contrained by the physical experience, then other styes are best. And this is a continuum of course, where we all are dots planted along the ways.

Not every fighter has the skills/styles to excel as a karate-based fighter, it is very important to have incredible footwork, high levels of flexibility, incredible reaction time, etc. to excel in that style.

Yes, withing the context of your global proposition, I was wrong & you are right.

MMA is about taking what skills work for your body/mindset and fine-tuning them in the context of multi-art combat. Not every fighter can be a Karate-style fighter and not every karate-style fighter can adapt that base skillset for an MMA style fight.

The qualifications I have posted aside, your proposition is the correct one. In practice very often, most often the case. Excellent perspective, I applaud that.

No single martial art has the depth of knowledge to appropriately handle all styles, it's why it's so important to learn multiple skillsets.

Ah, it certainly would look this way; however the reverse is true... in principle. The understanding doesn't come right away to the student. AS one progresses and synthesizes the skills, the absolute of principles comes to the fore.

Theres' evidence of this in the formal kumite, where for instance certain limited grappling is allowed and will score points, as well as for defense. But really the principles of karate or the TMA can be applied to any technique, situation.

As opposed to Sages's disaster of backing away, attempting to circle out, kind of stuff one can observe at the Muay Thai sparring thread I initially commented @, which can work but then all together was a very fast dead, end.

There is literally no champion fighter that isn't well-rounded at this stage of the MMA game.

Well, the UFC / MMA makes a very good test laboratory but it by no means has an exclusive lock on martial arts evaluation.

This is why I say for Dana White take his stable of 'elite' guys like Conor & Khabib over the the JKA Headquarters in Japan. Be sure to trash talk them to their faces then issue them a challenge match with MMA rules. See what happens. It'll be ugly I assure you. And Dana won't have the ace card of match making his way out of the fix his competitors will find themselves in. Not that the Japanese karateka are invincible. They're not. But its' the type of challenge I personally would never, ever entertain.

EDIT: So on a global basis, overall what you say is the true & correct operating basis for approaching MMA. Just remember, I've defeated stylists of all ilk with karate PRINICPLES.

POSTSCRIPT: That WAS just excellent discourse on your part. MMA camps should be seeking you out as a consultant.
They need it. Sages' career is in big trouble.

 

[KarateStylist]

You are beating boxer-stylists in MMA fights? Or in striking fights with Karate-based rulesets?

I would take prime Pat Miletich or Firas Zahabi over every single Karate master from Okinawa in an MMA fight.

Yeah, good for you.