On GnP, pins and stopping a fight

[PointyShinyBurn]

So now I am wondering... which martial art is a fighter using when they G&P?

BJJ. The striking possibilities of different pins is what differentiates BJJ from other grappling styles.

 

[number9dream]

BJJ. The striking possibilities of different pins is what differentiates BJJ from other grappling styles.

I disagree with that. BJJ can be part of a strong GnP:ers game, but IMO it has to be considered an unique aspect to MMA (and apparently combat sambo, tho I can't remember ever seeing GnP there).

Fedor had excellent GnP and his background is entirely without BJJ, same with several former wrestlers or sambo players. MMA at this point is sort of its own art as well as a rule set for other arts to come together and compete. The unique aspects are best found in the transitions I think (shared with Sambo which also has those same transitions) between positions/aspects of the sport, and obviously ground work with strikes involved (since strikes in the clinch exists in a number of arts).

Also, I'm under the impression that most BJJ-only gyms these days do not train for strikes on the ground much if at all? And when they do it's because they have an MMA focus. So I don't think saying someone is using BJJ when GnPing is very accurate. GnP:ing from a crucifix? BJJ played a part, sure. GnP:ing from a leg ride with opponent in turtle? Wrestling heritage. Everything has heritage but learning to strike in these situations, comes from MMA training and so it is MMA, IMO.

 

[dmwalking]

Sure, I have admitted to not training that long. My opinion is based on being a spectator concerning G&P and how it relates to MMA.

So now I am wondering... which martial art is a fighter using when they G&P?

-T

Brazilian Jiu jitsu. Watch the first 4 UFC's where Royce fought. He used strikes on the ground to set up submissions. He even got one guys to tap due to strikes. So much for your "purity of the art" silliness.

"But but GnP was coined after wrestlers would take down opponents with the intention of punching them on the ground!"

Then they're practicing wrestling.

"But but, wrestling doesn't have punches."

Then they're practicing pankration. No matter how you slice it, there is a science to striking on the ground. It definitely falls into the category of legitimate martial arts.

Get over it guy. If you want to talk about "purity of martial arts," consider that various old world martial arts practiced eye gouges, groin strikes, hair pulling, and throat strikes. Ninjitsu is a martial art and it's pretty much an arsenal of dirty tricks. Martial art loosely translates to "war" art. There's nothing pretty or pure about war. Get over that delusion and realize that the best martial arts are the ones that work whether it's "pure" in your opinion or not. If anything, the effectiveness of proper ground and pound should make it purer than some kata based fantasy fighting BS.

 

[dmwalking]

I disagree with that. BJJ can be part of a strong GnP:ers game, but IMO it has to be considered an unique aspect to MMA (and apparently combat sambo, tho I can't remember ever seeing GnP there).

Fedor had excellent GnP and his background is entirely without BJJ, same with several former wrestlers or sambo players. MMA at this point is sort of its own art as well as a rule set for other arts to come together and compete. The unique aspects are best found in the transitions I think (shared with Sambo which also has those same transitions) between positions/aspects of the sport, and obviously ground work with strikes involved (since strikes in the clinch exists in a number of arts).

Also, I'm under the impression that most BJJ-only gyms these days do not train for strikes on the ground much if at all? And when they do it's because they have an MMA focus. So I don't think saying someone is using BJJ when GnPing is very accurate. GnP:ing from a crucifix? BJJ played a part, sure. GnP:ing from a leg ride with opponent in turtle? Wrestling heritage. Everything has heritage but learning to strike in these situations, comes from MMA training and so it is MMA, IMO.

In the modern era, before MMA was MMA and was still Vale Tudo, who were the guys using GnP? BJJ guys. Even though GnP existed....probably since man first had to fight....it was BJJ that reintroduced this concept back into the general martial arts consciousness. I mean, look at Dan Severn's first fight. Took him a little while to remember that he was allowed to strike. As time when on, people picked up on Royce's style. Takedown, strike, submit. That was learned behavior from watching Royce in my opinion. But wrestlers just happened to be much better at takedowns so they took to GnP like a fish in water. But mostly, I'd say that what we see now with advanced GnP is just an evolution of BJJ's original GnP.

 

[Gambledub]

Complex art? Watch a few hours of youtube street fights and watch what happens when these know-nothings get on top... they pound. If an untrained Joe blow can do it, it ain't a complex art.

....

Now, submission holds are complex art. Striking with precise targeting is a complex art. Round house kicks, etc. These are skilled maneuvers Joe blow cannot do.

First off, I recommend checking this short article. It almost perfectly sums up ideal ground and pound techniques...

http://www.shogunhq.com/2007/01/striking-from-mount.html

Basically, achieve a dominant position, use frames and posts to draw out the opponents arms to either strike or advance to a more dominant position. You can rinse and repeat this to progress through a number of top positions. You can also turn the opponents head to create situations where they briefly are completely exposed to strikes.

Closed Guard

Spoiler: Bait Wrist Control, Phonebook Punch Break to Power Punch

Spoiler: Elbow and Grip Break vs Opponents Wrist Control

Spoiler: Trap Arms & Elbow from Dominant Wrist Control

Spoiler: Strike to Arm Trap to Strikes

Spoiler: Posture & Feint Pass to Create Striking Lanes

Side Control

Spoiler: Knee Strikes to Draw Block to Mounted Triangle

Mount

Spoiler: Strikes to Draw Blocks & Walk to High Mount

Spoiler: Strikes vs Stiff Arms to Escape

Spoiler: Striking to Remove Opponent from Wall & Reestablish Mount

Other Positions

Spoiler: Combining Submissions with Strikes

Spoiler: Striking from the Bottom to Create Openings

Essentially, GnP is it's own art form imo. It's mechanics are completely different from standing or clinch striking, entire positions have been created that serve no purpose other than GnP (think a crucifix pin from half guard). GnP is filled with a bunch of subtleties that really haven't been studied in depth compared to a lot of other MMA skill sets. Also aside from cage techniques, GnP is really a distinguishing factor of what makes MMA, MMA. No other art really has GnP and losing it would make MMA much less interesting to watch, at least for me.

 

[number9dream]

I sometimes wish I could just replace every post in this forum, and indeed every forum, with just Gambledub posts.

 

[Human Bass]

 

[Gambledub]

I sometimes wish I could just replace every post in this forum, and indeed every forum, with just Gambledub posts.

lol thanks!

 

[jack36767]

That's a good point... it has become it's own style/art...but thats a bad thing. I wish thay kept MMA a sport that combined 2 or more martial arts. Mixed Martial Arts is the result of that combination.

That would have gotten all of his ground and pound crap out of the sport. And we would have been left with skilled martial artists practicing their craft.

But I diverted just tread enough, so I'm stepping out

-T

No, no, no, no, you didn't diverte the discussion...you raised a point.. multiple people are answering you with sound logic...so don't run away... Gambledub, Uchi Mata, and several others asides from me have such wonderful replies to your arguments

Sure, I have admitted to not training that long. My opinion is based on being a spectator concerning G&P and how it relates to MMA.

So now I am wondering... which martial art is a fighter using when they G&P?

-T

Pankration...you know the ORIGINAL Olympic martial art

And oh yeah... Vale Tudo.. if you recall Royce Gracie has very specifically said..."I'm not an mma fighter, I'm a Vale Tudo fighter"...

 

[jack36767]

First off, I recommend checking this short article. It almost perfectly sums up ideal ground and pound techniques...

http://www.shogunhq.com/2007/01/striking-from-mount.html

Basically, achieve a dominant position, use frames and posts to draw out the opponents arms to either strike or advance to a more dominant position. You can rinse and repeat this to progress through a number of top positions. You can also turn the opponents head to create situations where they briefly are completely exposed to strikes.

Closed Guard

Spoiler: Bait Wrist Control, Phonebook Punch Break to Power Punch

Spoiler: Elbow and Grip Break vs Opponents Wrist Control

Spoiler: Trap Arms & Elbow from Dominant Wrist Control

Spoiler: Strike to Arm Trap to Strikes

Spoiler: Posture & Feint Pass to Create Striking Lanes

Side Control

Spoiler: Knee Strikes to Draw Block to Mounted Triangle

Mount

Spoiler: Strikes to Draw Blocks & Walk to High Mount

Spoiler: Strikes vs Stiff Arms to Escape

Spoiler: Striking to Remove Opponent from Wall & Reestablish Mount

Other Positions

Spoiler: Combining Submissions with Strikes

Spoiler: Striking from the Bottom to Create Openings

Essentially, GnP is it's own art form imo. It's mechanics are completely different from standing or clinch striking, entire positions have been created that serve no purpose other than GnP (think a crucifix pin from half guard). GnP is filled with a bunch of subtleties that really haven't been studied in depth compared to a lot of other MMA skill sets. Also aside from cage techniques, GnP is really a distinguishing factor of what makes MMA, MMA. No other art really has GnP and losing it would make MMA much less interesting to watch, at least for me.

Gamble you said you have Wade Schalles "Legal Pain" set right? Have you seen his idea for ground and pound where you strike in a certain order to catch the opponents wrists and trap his arms for a free shot?

 

[Gambledub]

Gamble you said you have Wade Schalles "Legal Pain" set right? Have you seen his idea for ground and pound where you strike in a certain order to catch the opponents wrists and trap his arms for a free shot?

It's been a long time since I watched it, I don't remember it though. I would check, but IIRC that's a long ass tape lol!

 

[jack36767]

It's been a long time since I watched it, I don't remember it though. I would check, but IIRC that's a long ass tape lol!

It's in the 4th part. During his seminar. I'll try to explain it later