On GnP, pins and stopping a fight

[number9dream]

While re-watching Josh Burkman vs Kim Dong Hyun I was struck by something., In the second round KDH has Burkman in kind of a half crucifix for most of the round, and spends it all hitting Burkman on the ears.

So while listening to the referee basically telling him to not hit the back of the head, and to 'hit the ears', it kind of struck me that if not for the 'no stirkes to the back of the head' rule... Burkman would basically be dead.

Do you think fights should be stopped here? I know he's not ACTUALLY taking that bad damage, but it's only because of a very artificial constraint - namely no strikes to the back of the head. If that rule wasn't there, he would be badly hurt.

Do you think an there could be some kind of pin-like victory condition in these situations? Obviously not a strict pin by judo or wrestling definitions, but like if someone is in a position to be GNP:ed for X amount of time it's a TKO loss or something like that. If fighters knew they had to get out of a position like this or mount in X seconds/minutes or get a loss, it would force them to take more risks to get out (just as they would have to if strikes to back of head weren't illegal) which would also make the position more entertaining and create more genuine finishes.

Maybe automatic 10-8 after x time? Not sure how effective/different that would really be.

If you agree that this is an odd situation, do you have any better ideas than the above (or the current system)? If you think I'm completely off base feel free to tell me that as well

 

[EndlessCritic]

I think it's a stupid rule. If the only target your opponent is offering is the back of their head, you should be allowed to hit it.

 

[number9dream]

I don't think that's a healthy option... I'd rather the rules/scoring reflected how bad the situation is, than have people seriously injured.

Maybe I'm misinformed as to how much worse it is to get hit in the back of the head tho.

 

[wordspeaker]

turtling up to gnp is not intelligent defense so yes stop it.

 

[rmongler]

i like the general idea.

 

[T-Bone]

As for a pin like victory, they could do like they do in boxing. They are a little more strict in boxing compared to MMA. But if a boxer does not defend himself and just keeps taking punches, they stop the fight.

They can do the same thing with MMA with fighters on the mat. It really makes no sense to have a fighter on the ground who keeps getting hit on his ears over and over and over again and doesn't offer a defense. Stop the freaking fight. TKO.

Although I personally dislike ground and pound. And have stated so in other threads. I just think it lowers the level of MMA competition. But that's another story for another time.

But I will say I would have no problems with fighters on the mat, on the ground, using body punches only. I think punches anywhere to the head should not be allowed.

-T

 

[number9dream]

As for a pin like victory, they could do like they do in boxing. They are a little more strict in boxing compared to MMA. But if a boxer does not defend himself and just keeps taking punches, they stop the fight.

I mean they do/are supposed to do this in mma, it just doesn't seem to happen when in these artificially "safe" positions.

 

[Human Bass]

Although I personally dislike ground and pound. And have stated so in other threads. I just think it lowers the level of MMA competition. But that's another story for another time.

But I will say I would have no problems with fighters on the mat, on the ground, using body punches only. I think punches anywhere to the head should not be allowed.

-T

Dude....dude. You one of the reasons that mount is so valued is being able to punch the head of the opponent. Ground and pound is not cheap, it is a complex art.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I don't think you need an artificial stoppage rule. If your position is good enough that you can do damage without your opponent being able to defend, you should be able to force a stoppage anyway. What refs need to do is recognize when the nature of the position is such that one guy can't defend himself and not wait for him to take a ton of shots before stopping the fight. It's one thing to give a guy on bottom guard a little leeway to take damage because these are pros and he has a reasonable chance of getting to a defensible position. But if you're on the wrong end of a crucifix, the ref doesn't need to let you take 20 shots before determining that yeah, you're going to get seriously hurt if he doesn't wave it off.

 

[T-Bone]

Dude....dude. You one of the reasons that mount is so valued is being able to punch the head of the opponent. Ground and pound is not cheap, it is a complex art.

Complex art? Watch a few hours of youtube street fights and watch what happens when these know-nothings get on top... they pound. If an untrained Joe blow can do it, it ain't a complex art.

I know. I know. But you'll say these are pros in the ring... and mounting another pro is hard. And even harder to G&P while mounting. But It is still something an untrained Joe blow can do to an opponent of equal weight and skill.

-T

Edit:

Now, submission holds are complex art. Striking with precise targeting is a complex art. Round house kicks, etc. These are skilled maneuvers Joe blow cannot do.

 

[Gambledub]

Complex art? Watch a few hours of youtube street fights and watch what happens when these know-nothings get on top... they pound. If an untrained Joe blow can do it, it ain't a complex art.

I know. I know. But you'll say these are pros in the ring... and mounting another pro is hard. And even harder to G&P while mounting. But It is still something an untrained Joe blow can do to an opponent of equal weight and skill.

-T

Edit:

Now, submission holds are complex art. Striking with precise targeting is a complex art. Round house kicks, etc. These are skilled maneuvers Joe blow cannot do.

Setting punches to draw frames to further pin an opponent, punching to draw frames to pass and advance position, feinting the pass to set up a strike. There are a ton of complex ground and pound situations, watch how Maia and Gunnar Nelson use ground and pound. I've seen untrained people hit guillotines too, it doesn't mean they aren't technical.

 

[dmwalking]

Eh, maybe a 10-8 round depending on how dominant that person was in that position. But I don't think it should be ruled like a pin fall. Interesting though to consider though.

 

[TheFakeMacoy]

Setting punches to draw frames to further pin an opponent, punching to draw frames to pass and advance position, feinting the pass to set up a strike. There are a ton of complex ground and pound situations, watch how Maia and Gunnar Nelson use ground and pound. I've seen untrained people hit guillotines too, it doesn't mean they aren't technical.

I agree with Gambledub here. Ground and pound is a complex area that really is only found in MMA. Saying that an "untrained Joe blow" can do it makes it simple is not true at all. Untrained Joe Blow's can throw punches, that doesn't mean that boxing isn't complex. They can tackle people, that doesn't mean that wrestling is simple. They can put people in head locks and guillotines, that doesn't make submission grappling easy. The question isn't whether or not they can do it, it's whether or not they can do it well.

There's a reason that some fighters have much better GNP than others. GSP wasn't able to take people down and land shots on them so consistently because GNP is simple, he did it because he understood how to do it while controlling his opponents.

As for the central point of the thread, I have to disagree with the reasoning. Knees to the head on the ground are against the rules as well, but I don't think that putting someone in north-south should instantly give you more points than any other pinning position.

 

[jack36767]

Complex art? Watch a few hours of youtube street fights and watch what happens when these know-nothings get on top... they pound. If an untrained Joe blow can do it, it ain't a complex art.

I know. I know. But you'll say these are pros in the ring... and mounting another pro is hard. And even harder to G&P while mounting. But It is still something an untrained Joe blow can do to an opponent of equal weight and skill.

-T

Edit:

Now, submission holds are complex art. Striking with precise targeting is a complex art. Round house kicks, etc. These are skilled maneuvers Joe blow cannot do.

You've already admitted you haven't actually trained that long...

Have you ever actually been in a fight with someone either somewhat competent or athletic...or rolled with strikes light or heavy...it's not that simple to actually ground and pound effectively

I've seen street fights with headlocks, double legs, rear naked chokes...with people who had either none or next to no training...so does that mean none of those things are not complex arts...oh ok

Just because something is simple to do on the surface doesn't mean it isn't actually complex to execute or be effective with....

The whole point of mma is to as closely simulate a fight and to combine all the martial arts as effectively and closely as possible...has it become a sport because of the need to legalize and keep it from just being eye gouges and groin shots....

In the light of simulating a FIGHT and combining martial arts...that's why there are gloves.. so you can see the art of boxing, mauy tai, along with the ground work of bjj and wrestling...the same way there's striking on the ground...like..you know..an actual fight..being a technique snob and saying just because you saw it in a street fight...and that it is only a legitimate technique if it's complex enough is naive

This is where you go..."well if you're going to simulate real fighting...why don't we just add eye gouging and groin shots...huh, huh, huh".... that's what usually happens..people exaggerate the point and ignore the point

 

[Human Bass]

Complex art? Watch a few hours of youtube street fights and watch what happens when these know-nothings get on top... they pound. If an untrained Joe blow can do it, it ain't a complex art.

I know. I know. But you'll say these are pros in the ring... and mounting another pro is hard. And even harder to G&P while mounting. But It is still something an untrained Joe blow can do to an opponent of equal weight and skill.

-T

Edit:

Now, submission holds are complex art. Striking with precise targeting is a complex art. Round house kicks, etc. These are skilled maneuvers Joe blow cannot do.

Try gnp someone with a good guard and scrambles. It's is hard to control/pin and setting strikes at the same time. That's why many fighters prefer lay and pray to ground and pound, the moment the guy strikes he creates openings that can be exploit by the opponent. See how Dan Severn couldn't gnp a much smaller Royce effectively.

 

[T-Bone]

You've already admitted you haven't actually trained that long...

Have you ever actually been in a fight with someone either somewhat competent or athletic...or rolled with strikes light or heavy...it's not that simple to actually ground and pound effectively

I've seen street fights with headlocks, double legs, rear naked chokes...with people who had either none or next to no training...so does that mean none of those things are not complex arts...oh ok

Just because something is simple to do on the surface doesn't mean it isn't actually complex to execute or be effective with....

The whole point of mma is to as closely simulate a fight and to combine all the martial arts as effectively and closely as possible...has it become a sport because of the need to legalize and keep it from just being eye gouges and groin shots....

In the light of simulating a FIGHT and combining martial arts...that's why there are gloves.. so you can see the art of boxing, mauy tai, along with the ground work of bjj and wrestling...the same way there's striking on the ground...like..you know..an actual fight..being a technique snob and saying just because you saw it in a street fight...and that it is only a legitimate technique if it's complex enough is naive

This is where you go..."well if you're going to simulate real fighting...why don't we just add eye gouging and groin shots...huh, huh, huh".... that's what usually happens..people exaggerate the point and ignore the point

Sure, I have admitted to not training that long. My opinion is based on being a spectator concerning G&P and how it relates to MMA.

So now I am wondering... which martial art is a fighter using when they G&P?

-T

 

[number9dream]

which martial art is a fighter using when they G&P?

MMA - at this point it is its own art. Good GnP is way harder and more technical than you think. Sure, if you have power and just wail on them you'll get results, but the same thing can be said for stand-up (plenty of people who are mostly power and no technique).

 

[Uchi Mata]

Complex art? Watch a few hours of youtube street fights and watch what happens when these know-nothings get on top... they pound. If an untrained Joe blow can do it, it ain't a complex art.

I know. I know. But you'll say these are pros in the ring... and mounting another pro is hard. And even harder to G&P while mounting. But It is still something an untrained Joe blow can do to an opponent of equal weight and skill.

-T

Edit:

Now, submission holds are complex art. Striking with precise targeting is a complex art. Round house kicks, etc. These are skilled maneuvers Joe blow cannot do.

What a specious argument. Untrained people throw punches at each other, does that mean boxing is non-technical? Untrained people grab each other and punch, does that mean the clinch is non-technical? Untrained people will attempt to do almost all the same things skilled martial artists do, they just do them very, very, very badly. The difference between doing it badly and doing it well:technique. That's as true for ground striking as standing striking or submissions or anything else. If you aren't convinced, just look at the finish rates various fighters have against downed opponents. Some are almost 100% (Fedor and Tito back in the day, oddly enough Anderson Silva, Luke Rockhold, etc.) and others, mostly the unranked guys, don't often finish when they get in dominant position. The difference is skill in the application of holding people down and hitting them. It's not simple, and if you think it is you should strap on the gloves and try it.

 

[T-Bone]

MMA - at this point it is its own art. Good GnP is way harder and more technical than you think. Sure, if you have power and just wail on them you'll get results, but the same thing can be said for stand-up (plenty of people who are mostly power and no technique).

That's a good point... it has become it's own style/art...but thats a bad thing. I wish thay kept MMA a sport that combined 2 or more martial arts. Mixed Martial Arts is the result of that combination.

That would have gotten all of his ground and pound crap out of the sport. And we would have been left with skilled martial artists practicing their craft.

But I diverted just tread enough, so I'm stepping out

-T

 

[Gambledub]

That's a good point... it has become it's own style/art...but thats a bad thing. I wish thay kept MMA a sport that combined 2 or more martial arts. Mixed Martial Arts is the result of that combination.

That would have gotten all of his ground and pound crap out of the sport. And we would have been left with skilled martial artists practicing their craft.

But I diverted just tread enough, so I'm stepping out

-T

I will find some good gnp gifs and see if I can convince you to change your opinion lol!

Side note, Combat Sambo also apparently has ground strikes though I have never seen anything taught.