Old fashioned Bare knuckle Boxing/Wing Chun type punches vs modern boxing for self defence

[TheMaster]

Old school bare knuckle boxing techniques and even the stance are closest to a modified form of 'wing chun boxing'. One theory is British sailors in Hong Kong fought kung fu guys and the result was Wing Chun.

Before we go, I am not intersted in posting vids of some bum wing chun guys from youtube or anything else. 90% of these idiots dont train properly and embarrass themselves and the style.
I am not even talking about 'can wing chun work in mma' either. Just to answer that question now, yes wing chun could work and be adapted in mma if:
1/.The WC guy is cross trained to a high level in takedown defence and a groundfighting/grappling style obviously.
2/. He spars top level boxer/muay thai/kickboxing etc and learns to adapt the style to work, like Machida did with karate. We have yet to see it but I imagine we will. For some wing chun influenced techniques in mma so far see Anderson Silva vs Bisping rd 4. It is interesting but I dont read much into it as Silva could prob make alot if stuff work.
Not discussion of Alan Orr either.

This thread is about whether techniques of old time bare knuckle boxing some of which are in modern times most closely related to some of the techniques found in Wing Chun, can be better applied than modern boxing for self defence without gloves.

Having a Judo backround I always thought Wing Chun combined with a good grappling style could be good for self defence.

Advantages:
-Vertical fist (Dempsey style) is much safer bare knuckle for not breaking the hands.
- old time bare knuckle boxers favoured straight punches also used in wing chun again suggesting a connection. Hooks if landed wrongly bare knuckle will also mess up your wrist and hand.
- Close range elbows (done a bit differently than in Muay thai) and forearm strikes.
- old school bare knuckle boxers comonly used palm strikes to the head not fists, again to avoid breaking the hands. It is is not the same as 'modern bare knuckle' much at all. Think Bas Rutten type palm heels/wrist bone strikes.
- Close range sensitivity and control aspect alot like 'dirty boxing', links nicely to grappling.

If anyone trains also for self defence and uses boxing as their main striking style, what are the thoughts on this. Bare in mind that modern boxing is designed for gloved fighting.
Just like in Judo the 'ippon' victory of a throw is based on doing it outside on a hard surface will likely end things, the ring and self defence are different it seems many automatically think sport boxing techniques are best for self defence but there is a reason bare knuckle fighting looked very different.

 

[thugpoet]

The problem with boxing for self defense is that weight classes matter and if I am 5 6 170 fighting off a drunk 6 1 210 guy will be tough on me with punches or slaps.

Judo and greco are probably your best bet with one on one combat.

In a street situation I am going for a knee shatter then back take rear naked but that is what my skill set allows.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

If anyone trains also for self defence and uses boxing as their main striking style, what are the thoughts on this. Bare in mind that modern boxing is designed for gloved fighting.
Just like in Judo the 'ippon' victory of a throw is based on doing it outside on a hard surface will likely end things, the ring and self defence are different it seems many automatically think sport boxing techniques are best for self defence but there is a reason bare knuckle fighting looked very different.

If it is a hard surface, wouldnt landing on your knees, and hands be just as bad? Landing on your back gives opponent opportunity to spread impact out. If you land on knees or hands, weight is all focused on the joint. And if you dont catch yourself on knees or hands, you land on face.

Also canon judo tech does not slam the opponent onto floor. It can be modified to though. But if you really want to slam someone you need to go Big Sexy Kevin Nash style, and power bomb them, or goldberg jackhammer DDT.

 

[panamaican]

I don't many people can accurately determine if old school bare knuckle boxing resembles WC in a self-defense setting because I don't think many people train either of them to a high enough degree to analyze the techniques and general applications.

If we're talking strictly self-defense against a random angry unarmed person with the goal of protecting yourself long enough to get away, I think they all work decently enough assuming you're in good shape and not giving up too much a weight advantage.

 

[TrevorRoss]

You need to check out the book by Daniel Mendoza. If that nasty Jew was around during the holocaust, he’d have painted Berlin red with Hitler’s blood!

 

[eternaldarkness]

The problem with boxing for self defense is that weight classes matter and if I am 5 6 170 fighting off a drunk 6 1 210 guy will be tough on me with punches or slaps.

Judo and greco are probably your best bet with one on one combat.

In a street situation I am going for a knee shatter then back take rear naked but that is what my skill set allows.

actually boxing works well against much larger people if you have a strong punch. the concepts around amateur boxing and punching for points means nothing in a real fight.

 

[TheMachinegun12]

No, it's about polishing your punching technique, in a way that enables you to transfer the most power with the least amount of effort. You can do that in boxing or I would guess also in wing chong.

 

[Fire of Youth]

I always thought that wing chun mixed with sumo would be a pretty good combo. Both rely on speed, mainly with straight strikes, and emphasis the control of the other fighter.

 

[Replay19]

Some Wing Chun concepts are great to apply in modern fighting, but not everything. The footwork is questionable, and using chain punches on MMA or thai athletes might not work so well. Wing Chun fighting has dangerous chain punches but that's more for street and it's punching power and greatly reduce with gloves, even MMA gloves. However, Wing Chun's concepts and principles can influence an MMA or thai fighter guy. The oblique kick and low sidekick are Wing Chun things, not muay thai, not taekwondo, not karate.

Wing Chun fighter would have to watch out for clinch, takedowns, and boxer's hook, and WC fighter would have to not be stupid and rush into opponents throwing chain punches if opponent is mobile and elusive.

I agree with your list of reasons why Wing Chun could work, but pure Wing Chun just would not work. Some concepts may work, and in many cases it may not even look like Wing Chun at all.

I agree with your reasons and that could help the fighter though. The problem is not enough Wing Chun guys really bravely go out there and fight other styles and try to get competitively better. And if they do, they only "try 1 fight" and never fight over and over again to get better. Most martial artists are not interested in sparing other styles, I don't know why. Some muay thai people just want spar other muay thai guys, and many WC guys only spar other WC guys. I personally think the more different fighters the more exciting and truthful to fighting one could possibly get.

 

[TheMaster]

I don't many people can accurately determine if old school bare knuckle boxing resembles WC in a self-defense setting because I don't think many people train either of them to a high enough degree to analyze the techniques and general applications.

If we're talking strictly self-defense against a random angry unarmed person with the goal of protecting yourself long enough to get away, I think they all work decently enough assuming you're in good shape and not giving up too much a weight advantage.

Well I should clarify I have trained WC to a reasonably high level on top of Judo so I am happy to discuss potential applications, especially for bare knuckle.

I think we will be hard pressed to find an old fashioned bare knuckle guy though...even modern bare knuckle is a bit different the original old way included clinching and palm strikes.

Im going by articles I have read and descriptions from bare fist fighters as well as Dempseys thoughts on the subject.
It is almost unanimous the 3 lower knuckle vertical fist is the only way they seriously consider punching without gloves.

I also actually favour palm strikes to the head. Punching the top of head or bony areas with bare fist for any length if time is not fun. Palm heel to the jaw or behind the ear is just as effective to ko and you wont risk breaking your hand or rolling your wrist.

Even gnp with bare fist is highly dangerous for the one delivering also, palm strikes and hard slaps are the ways to go.

When I have spared boxers, what works is to stay out of boxing.
- So basically 'clinch' them (might also be my judo instinct) then dirty box using close range strikes and spoiling/ controling their hands and punches.

-Otherwise stay outside boxing range and use the longfist vertical straight punch picking your shots. You can also parry/ deflect punches using the forearm or hands at range (as well as close).
When you fight like this it starts looking a hell of alot like old school bare knuckle which makes me believe the connection is real.

It always struck me as ironic how WC is widely trashed in the US mma community when it really could be the last living link to historical bare knuckle.
No legit cross trained guy ever competed as yet, but I believe it works best and is designed for the barefist arena or self defence primarily.

 

[eternaldarkness]

wing chun was actually invented be a chick. or so the legend goes. i have boxed more than half my life but i have a lot of respect for wing chun. i believe with a lot of practice it could compliment boxing nicely. i have been watching heaps of old school boxing and it's surprising how common trapping the hands was.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Well I should clarify I have trained WC to a reasonably high level on top of Judo so I am happy to discuss potential applications, especially for bare knuckle.

I think we will be hard pressed to find an old fashioned bare knuckle guy though...even modern bare knuckle is a bit different the original old way included clinching and palm strikes.

Im going by articles I have read and descriptions from bare fist fighters as well as Dempseys thoughts on the subject.
It is almost unanimous the 3 lower knuckle vertical fist is the only way they seriously consider punching without gloves.

I also actually favour palm strikes to the head. Punching the top of head or bony areas with bare fist for any length if time is not fun. Palm heel to the jaw or behind the ear is just as effective to ko and you wont risk breaking your hand or rolling your wrist.

Even gnp with bare fist is highly dangerous for the one delivering also, palm strikes and hard slaps are the ways to go.

When I have spared boxers, what works is to stay out of boxing.
- So basically 'clinch' them (might also be my judo instinct) then dirty box using close range strikes and spoiling/ controling their hands and punches.

-Otherwise stay outside boxing range and use the longfist vertical straight punch picking your shots. You can also parry/ deflect punches using the forearm or hands at range (as well as close).
When you fight like this it starts looking a hell of alot like old school bare knuckle which makes me believe the connection is real.

It always struck me as ironic how WC is widely trashed in the US mma community when it really could be the last living link to historical bare knuckle.
No legit cross trained guy ever competed as yet, but I believe it works best and is designed for the barefist arena or self defence primarily.

i can remember when all striking was trashed for no holds barred, then it was just kicking that was trashed, and then fancy kicks (spinning shit) and karate, then along came machida. i believe that nearly every martial art technique is applicable if used in the right situation

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Some Wing Chun concepts are great to apply in modern fighting, but not everything. The footwork is questionable, and using chain punches on MMA or thai athletes might not work so well. Wing Chun fighting has dangerous chain punches but that's more for street and it's punching power and greatly reduce with gloves, even MMA gloves. However, Wing Chun's concepts and principles can influence an MMA or thai fighter guy. The oblique kick and low sidekick are Wing Chun things, not muay thai, not taekwondo, not karate.

Wing Chun fighter would have to watch out for clinch, takedowns, and boxer's hook, and WC fighter would have to not be stupid and rush into opponents throwing chain punches if opponent is mobile and elusive.

I agree with your list of reasons why Wing Chun could work, but pure Wing Chun just would not work. Some concepts may work, and in many cases it may not even look like Wing Chun at all.

I agree with your reasons and that could help the fighter though. The problem is not enough Wing Chun guys really bravely go out there and fight other styles and try to get competitively better. And if they do, they only "try 1 fight" and never fight over and over again to get better. Most martial artists are not interested in sparing other styles, I don't know why. Some muay thai people just want spar other muay thai guys, and many WC guys only spar other WC guys. I personally think the more different fighters the more exciting and truthful to fighting one could possibly get.

WC wants the clinch. That is how they use the hand trapping

 

[Ilk]

I would say boxing itself is great for self defence. I am not familiar with Wing Chun. But there is nothing better than a jab to the nose or a left hook slap to the ear that can end an opponent quick and without much violence... beside the broken nose.

Point fighting in boxing may sound ridiculous for street fight. But there are far few better strategies to defend than knowing your distance and having footwork. What is really better than jumping back out of an attack and comming back with a quick jab (nose) + cross (solar plexus)? That ends almost everyone. And boxers do learn to punch. I ocassionaly spar a bouncer in a club who is 30 kg heavier and I have stopped him once with a 1-2 unintentionally. I just hit the plexus while he was coming forward.

So not sure why the hate on boxing is. Sure it is not funny to hit hard bones with your hands... but boxing is what will teach you best people to hit you at the head not at the chin or nose the best.

 

[kenpeters8]

Wing Chun is garbage. I wouldn't waste my time on that useless crap.

 

[eternaldarkness]

I would say boxing itself is great for self defence. I am not familiar with Wing Chun. But there is nothing better than a jab to the nose or a left hook slap to the ear that can end an opponent quick and without much violence... beside the broken nose.

Point fighting in boxing may sound ridiculous for street fight. But there are far few better strategies to defend than knowing your distance and having footwork. What is really better than jumping back out of an attack and comming back with a quick jab (nose) + cross (solar plexus)? That ends almost everyone. And boxers do learn to punch. I ocassionaly spar a bouncer in a club who is 30 kg heavier and I have stopped him once with a 1-2 unintentionally. I just hit the plexus while he was coming forward.

So not sure why the hate on boxing is. Sure it is not funny to hit hard bones with your hands... but boxing is what will teach you best people to hit you at the head not at the chin or nose the best.

i'm a life long boxer but, when it comes to street fights i have a more karate minded approach, one shot one kill. it doesn't always work but i believe an emphasis on effective strikes and shot placement to be one of the most important aspects of self defence. you rarely have the time or sufficient space to start using footwork and grappling encourages his mates to jump in. drop'em then stomp'em and move on to the next threat. (i has a fair amount of experience scrapping against larger opponents, multiple opponents and have even fought someone wielding a bat once, so it's not all theory).

 

[eternaldarkness]

Wing Chun is garbage. I wouldn't waste my time on that useless crap.

no martial art is useless, and the only reliable styles are run-fu and gun-fu. i have seen quite a few people that are good fighters get cleaned up underestimating the situation. i actually believe that most martial arts only create a false sense of security, including boxing and mma. in fact mma is one of the worst as people think it's a good idea to start rolling around on the ground.

 

[Ilk]

i'm a life long boxer but, when it comes to street fights i have a more karate minded approach, one shot one kill. it doesn't always work but i believe an emphasis on effective strikes and shot placement to be one of the most important aspects of self defence. you rarely have the time or sufficient space to start using footwork and grappling encourages his mates to jump in. drop'em then stomp'em and move on to the next threat. (i has a far amount of experience scrapping against larger opponents, multiple opponents and have even fought someone wielding a bat once, so it's not all theory).

Oh I agree this is why I was trying to ve acurate with a jab to the nose or a cross to the solar plexus. Or a left hook slap to the ear. These are all fight stopping or giving you a serious advantage punches. I have some fights experience. Last one I pretty much stopped with the left hook slap. It was a shorter skinny guy with a big mouth and I really did not want to hurt him so I dropped him with the slap left hook. Landed right on his cheek and he hit the floor.

I have stopped a friend of mine with a double jab to the nose too. It was very light punching. But most people do not bear pain at all.

 

[rd2play]

A buddy of mine finished street fights with one single jab to the nose. He's very fast and hits hard. An accurate hard jab does wonders on the street, where you deal mostly with untrained fighters.

I box and have done Wing chun. For self defense I would pick boxing, no question. Ducking, slipping and rolling confuse many thugs and open up opportunities that I just don't see in Wing chun. Of course, for an actual self defense situation I would use elbows, low kicks and knees, whatever is needed. But boxing would be my base.

 

[thugpoet]

actually boxing works well against much larger people if you have a strong punch. the concepts around amateur boxing and punching for points means nothing in a real fight.

Have you ever hit a guy who is 20 pounds bigger than you that dropped him? I'd say not very many. Most fights with kos are from same sized fighters. There are weight classes for a reason.