Old fashioned Bare knuckle Boxing/Wing Chun type punches vs modern boxing for self defence

[SandisLL]

Yes. And I would love to hear your take on it. Ill post in couple hours.

Okey, maybe you have some examples like this picture in wikipedia article about Xing Yi Quan
6th picture in article with master Yang Hai?

 

[franklinstower]

Here are the five fists from the exact style that I study it also contains the linking set. This is the Fu style but it is directly in the Sun Lu Tang lineage. Xing Yi is simple BUT it is one of the internal styles and that means that the precise linking of the body develops an unusual degree of power with minimal effort. It is VERY subtle and hard to see but it is there.

What i like about Xing Yi is that most of it works right out of the gate and is practical after a very short time but you get the benefit of an extremely sophisticates style that offers more and more power through subtlety in the long run.

 

[franklinstower]

@Reyesnuthugr

Notice in particular when the back foot hits on the second fist. The back foot lands right as the fist makes contact with the opponent. This seem weird at first but when you get this all of the power generated from the forwards step is thrust upwards in a spiral that explodes out of the arm into the hand. Even the stomp of the back foot sends a shock wave through the body into the fist. The shoulders are rounded forward until the arm is extending and then they expand as you make contact.

Just a rough overview but it is an interesting way of incorporating frame and various muscle groups all into one punch which adds a lot of power when it is all timed right.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

@Reyesnuthugr

Notice in particular when the back foot hits on the second fist. The back foot lands right as the fist makes contact with the opponent. This seem weird at first but when you get this all of the power generated from the forwards step is thrust upwards in a spiral that explodes out of the arm into the hand. Even the stomp of the back foot sends a shock wave through the body into the fist. The shoulders are rounded forward until the arm is extending and then they expand as you make contact.

Just a rough overview but it is an interesting way of incorporating frame and various muscle groups all into one punch which adds a lot of power when it is all timed right.

Interesting, thanks.

That actually makes sense about the back foot. A similar thing is done in boxing-- you don't want either foot to be off the ground when connecting, so if you have to step to get somewhere and punch, you need to put that foot back down quickly rather than leaving it up in the air where it's a liability to balance and leaks one's ability to create leverage.

I like the springyness of the arms and body (instead of the standard robotic wooden-ness favored by many TMAs, which kills the power)

I also really like the use of falling bodyweight when connecting. This is similar to "sitting down on your punches" which a surprising amount of modern boxers forget to do.
---

I've read a little about this style in the past but was never able to find any live demonstrations of it, it was one of the more well known (1 of the 3 major Internal schools) yet rare(ly practiced) styles.

I read that it was created in jail where the founder had an iron ball attached to one leg, so that's where the compact, linear footwork is from (has to work in that situation where you don't have a lot of space and cant take regular steps)

Pretty cool, thanks!

 

[franklinstower]

Interesting, thanks.

That actually makes sense about the back foot. A similar thing is done in boxing-- you don't want either foot to be off the ground when connecting, so if you have to step to get somewhere and punch, you need to put that foot back down quickly rather than leaving it up in the air where it's a liability to balance and leaks one's ability to create leverage.

I like the springyness of the arms and body (instead of the standard robotic wooden-ness favored by many TMAs, which kills the power)

I also really like the use of falling bodyweight when connecting. This is similar to "sitting down on your punches" which a surprising amount of modern boxers forget to do.
---

I've read a little about this style in the past but was never able to find any live demonstrations of it, it was one of the more well known (1 of the 3 major Internal schools) yet rare(ly practiced) styles.

I read that it was created in jail where the founder had an iron ball attached to one leg, so that's where the compact, linear footwork is from (has to work in that situation where you don't have a lot of space and cant take regular steps)

Pretty cool, thanks!

That is very observant and I might even be learning something from your observation. The main criticisms Victor Fu gets is from the "bounciness" which is his innovation of Sun Lu Tangs approach. If you have anything more to say about that I would appreciate it actually.....

The back foot dropping has some very high level technique to it. Its not just the sitting down on it but the accumulation of the whipping energy that is created in the whole body when the step forward begins and then the stomp which throws ALL of that significant energy into the upper body which is added to by torquing the waist and expanding the shoulders. This is what makes the style internal in that a ton of power is created without any winging of punches. Its all small frame power. Its enough to feel creepy to the opponent when done correctly. Creepy physics.

Even the uppercut is not traditional in this way. When you see him doing it on certain ones he exaggerates the wave motion from feet to fist that is created. The wave can be smaller and smaller over time but can be exaggerated if that perfect opportunity arises for more power.

The style has a philosophy of fighting also which is focused on pure aggression in a straight line until you break your opponents structure and then land that heavy shot. I don't care much for the strategy aspect of the style. I mean I could use it but have been in enough fights to know that different situations call for different strategy. No way am I letting style dictate my whole strategy. I think of Xing Yi as offering me a way to develop a ton of power from many different angles but Ill decide how and when to use that.

I would be much more inclined to use the third fist as a jab and await a significant power attack from my opponent and then parry/block while getting inside to the body with hard shots. That is just more natural to me.

The whole style is geared towards setting up that knockout punch ultimately and the knockout is to the body usually.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

That is very observant and I might even be learning something from your observation. The main criticisms Victor Fu gets is from the "bounciness" which is his innovation of Sun Lu Tangs approach. If you have anything more to say about that I would appreciate it actually.....

Well, we've noticed the prevalence of stiff "stop on a dime and leave it there" punching in TMAs like with TKD and karate. It "looks cool" and "feels cool" because it is an artificial substitute (fighting with movements emulating a robot) that incorrectly mimics what looks like control. When a person elects to exert themselves needlessly like this, they are using their own energy and commitment to decelerate their own momentum which they have worked to create in the first place. This kills the penetration and damage they would do if they had let it go.

All just to look cool and feel like something is being accomplished. It looks cool to spectators, who have no idea which way is up. It definitely draws new students for this reason: it's the exact opposite of subtle. People who don't know much assume a lot and have absurd egos to cater to. These demonstrations give them what they want.

---

Springiness is one way to keep the momentum alive while redirecting it instead of expending extra effort to stop it dead. Putting little circles on the end of somewhat straight lines of force to keep it going (either for penetration on contact [like a whip] or redirection it for further use) rather than cancelling it (why cancel it? It's like turning your car OFF every time you drive a foot) by counteracting it using opposite effort/contraction.

Boxers tend to make more use of some looser yet still compact circles (follow through), which allows them to continue their momentum/energy without needing to tense up and also so they can conserve it over a long period. The rubber/springy thing would wear them out early. They still make some very tight circles but prefer not to tense up while doing it, which is the most efficient way, imo.

Spoiler

*I have still seen Chris Eubank Jr do the tense and springy thing (as a notable exception), though. Would not recommend copying him for boxing. Sometimes he's just tense almost like a robot.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Well, we've noticed the prevalence of stiff "stop on a dime and leave it there" punching in TMAs like with TKD and karate. It "looks cool" and "feels cool" because it is an artificial substitute (fighting with movements emulating a robot) that incorrectly mimics what looks like control. When a person elects to exert themselves needlessly like this, they are using their own energy and commitment to decelerate their own momentum which they have worked to create in the first place. This kills the penetration and damage they would do if they had let it go.

All just to look cool and feel like something is being accomplished. It looks cool to spectators, who have no idea which way is up. It definitely draws new students for this reason: it's the exact opposite of subtle. People who don't know much assume a lot and have absurd egos to cater to. These demonstrations give them what they want.

---

Springiness is one way to keep the momentum alive while redirecting it instead of expending extra effort to stop it dead. Putting little circles on the end of somewhat straight lines of force to keep it going (either for penetration on contact [like a whip] or redirection it for further use) rather than cancelling it (why cancel it? It's like turning your car OFF every time you drive a foot) by counteracting it using opposite effort/contraction.

Boxers tend to make more use of some looser yet still compact circles (follow through), which allows them to continue their momentum/energy without needing to tense up and also so they can conserve it over a long period. The rubber/springy thing would wear them out early. They still make some very tight circles but prefer not to tense up while doing it, which is the most efficient way, imo.

Spoiler

*I have still seen Chris Eubank Jr do the tense and springy thing (as a notable exception), though. Would not recommend copying him for boxing. Sometimes he's just tense almost like a robot.

marciano looked crude to some, but to me he is a marvel of punching efficiency and power. he didn't use any energy putting the brakes on his punches (traditional recovery of guard) he just covered himself with another punch or rolling at the end of the punch. he is the opposite of mayweather in that regard as mayweather has amazing defence at the expense of a bit of follow through.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Well, we've noticed the prevalence of stiff "stop on a dime and leave it there" punching in TMAs like with TKD and karate. It "looks cool" and "feels cool" because it is an artificial substitute (fighting with movements emulating a robot) that incorrectly mimics what looks like control. When a person elects to exert themselves needlessly like this, they are using their own energy and commitment to decelerate their own momentum which they have worked to create in the first place. This kills the penetration and damage they would do if they had let it go.

All just to look cool and feel like something is being accomplished. It looks cool to spectators, who have no idea which way is up. It definitely draws new students for this reason: it's the exact opposite of subtle. People who don't know much assume a lot and have absurd egos to cater to. These demonstrations give them what they want.

---

Springiness is one way to keep the momentum alive while redirecting it instead of expending extra effort to stop it dead. Putting little circles on the end of somewhat straight lines of force to keep it going (either for penetration on contact [like a whip] or redirection it for further use) rather than cancelling it (why cancel it? It's like turning your car OFF every time you drive a foot) by counteracting it using opposite effort/contraction.

Boxers tend to make more use of some looser yet still compact circles (follow through), which allows them to continue their momentum/energy without needing to tense up and also so they can conserve it over a long period. The rubber/springy thing would wear them out early. They still make some very tight circles but prefer not to tense up while doing it, which is the most efficient way, imo.

Spoiler

*I have still seen Chris Eubank Jr do the tense and springy thing (as a notable exception), though. Would not recommend copying him for boxing. Sometimes he's just tense almost like a robot.

tension is the enemy of generating power, the only time tension comes into play is the moment of impact to stabilise the fist and create alignment/brace against the recoil of the impact. most people can generate far more force than they can deliver to the target due to recoil.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

tension is the enemy of generating power, the only time tension comes into play is the moment of impact to stabilise the fist and create alignment/brace against the recoil of the impact. most people can generate far more force than they can deliver to the target due to recoil.

Nicely put!

I can't say this kind of thing without writing 12 jumbled paragraphs

 

[josh rome]

@Reyesnuthugr

Notice in particular when the back foot hits on the second fist. The back foot lands right as the fist makes contact with the opponent. This seem weird at first but when you get this all of the power generated from the forwards step is thrust upwards in a spiral that explodes out of the arm into the hand. Even the stomp of the back foot sends a shock wave through the body into the fist. The shoulders are rounded forward until the arm is extending and then they expand as you make contact.

Just a rough overview but it is an interesting way of incorporating frame and various muscle groups all into one punch which adds a lot of power when it is all timed right.

this is all bullshit i throw hard trying to knock my mad out fighting fuck all this other bs shit will get u seriously hurt

 

[josh rome]

tension is the enemy of generating power, the only time tension comes into play is the moment of impact to stabilise the fist and create alignment/brace against the recoil of the impact. most people can generate far more force than they can deliver to the target due to recoil.

youd get ur ass beat with that bullshit u nerd

 

[franklinstower]

this is all bullshit i throw hard trying to knock my mad out fighting fuck all this other bs shit will get u seriously hurt

Double yellows, no knowledge of the topic at hand and you cant write a sentence that makes sense......

 

[ctrlaltdelete]

Tell you what, put me in a ring against someone taller and bigger than me with zero training and shit cardio, and I will beat them.

Now put me and the same opponent on the street, and there's a good chance I'll get pummeled

 

[SandisLL]

Now put me and the same opponent on the street, and there's a good chance I'll get pummeled

My subjective opinion is that I partially agree with you, but only partially.

Yes, these ''bouts'' usually aren't longer than 30 seconds, not rarity that less than 10 seconds. This I think might confirm, that cardio there Isn't value IF "bout" lasts less than 30 seconds.

Training? If opponent is with 0 formal training but with this street experience, he might be extremally dangerous if his experience is really decent. This matters that he then know about major value of the damn...speed. Act as fast as it is possible. Also then he developed some skillset what worked for him and there aren't formal training how to properly use glass bottle for beating and how to break this bottle to create dangerous tool for stabbling. Prisons are full with people, who are in prison, because they have such kind of real application experience and they already did it succesfully on live opponent.

Shit cardio in the ring?
Striking arts bouts, I think, until they gassed out, they are still dangerous. Especially if they have longer reach cos longer arms, legs than opponent and are far stronger than opponent.
I saw some bouts, where opponent had just longer reach and was far more physically stronger but won even with shitty technique. Some from them I cannot afford to call as kickboxing or boxing bout, because I think, this was just simple beating. Yeah, landed a few incredibly strong strikes and that's it.
If bout is long rounds, then sometimes the same guy might not bear just cos cardio. Some looks like 12 rounds really quick shadowboxing in air might deliver them TKO without any opponent.

 

[Ilk]

Tell you what, put me in a ring against someone taller and bigger than me with zero training and shit cardio, and I will beat them.

Now put me and the same opponent on the street, and there's a good chance I'll get pummeled

This is not entirely true. I was trying to explain that to a guy in the strength and conditioning sub forum.
Every stand up fighter should develope a hit that can make people stop immediately. Not matter their size. I am not talking about some secret techniques.

For my ex kick boxing coach who was a pro MMA fighter and now is doing pro kick boxing it is the low kick. He works as a bouncer. He is not big, fights at 80 to 83 kg which is about his walking weight. Due to his size compared to his gorilla like colleagues he is often the first target in a brawl. Big mistake. The guy has developed a low kick that makes you never stand up. Precise technique, high power and nobody that is not trained can stand after his low kick lands. I have seen him deliver it in a fight and it is ugly.

I have a mate with whom I was boxing. He also bounces. He is 170 and walks around 80-87 kg depends on winter or summer. He does not compete now but the guy can punch. His right can kill and he has developed a technique to land it. I ve seen him land it and he was in a domestic arrest for 6 months, because h almost killed the guy. And that was a huge guy an ex cop. He dropped as a fly and lost a lot of teet.

I ve seen another guy with a pretty solid lead round house kick. He was dropping people with one kick to the mid section. Very efficient.

So imo everyone who has trained. Should develop 1 or two hits or a simple combo that can drop people no matter their size using the most simple techniques out there.

Lastly the psycological effect of fighting. If the big guy gets hit first and get hit in a good way. There is a good chance they get scared.

Come on even in a spar as a newbie. You get brawled by someone who puts high power into his punches and you take a defensive approach to survive and then come to sherdog to complain about them.