Official Women's Division Discussion #25

[MajorTB]

Coenen also got subbed by Dufresne.

In her defense, Coenen was already past her prime in that fight.

From 2010-2014 she was legitimately one of the best fighters in the world though. Her resume sort of speaks for itself.

Celine Haga (10-15) will be fighting Kali Robbins (5-2) at JacksonWink Fight Night 4 in Albuquerque, NM on November 30th. Celine fought at the last JacksonWink show and lost against recent UFC signee Hannah Cifers. Most recently she was involved in the SCL Queen of Sparta Tournament where she lost a boxing match to Heather Denny and lost a muay thai match for Kathryn Paprocki in the same night. Celine has had a rough 2018 but has the change to turn it all around against Robbins. Robbins is also on a losing streak and is also coming off an MMA loss to Hannah Cifers. Earlier in the year she was also defeated by Pearl Gonzalez. Previous to that, she had never lost a fight in her pro or amateur career. I'm looking forward to this fight. Both of these women are fan favorites in their regions.

Cifers sort of reminds me of Viviane Pereira. She’s short, but really strong, and really durable.

I think Haga’s probably a better striker than Robbins, and she’s certainly a more versatile grappler. Her main advantage in this fight, is that she knows what Kali Robbins is almost certain to do.. rush into the clinch looking to take her down.

For Robbins, she’s got decent cardio, and she’s a good top control grappler. Her biggest advantage versus Haga is just raw physicality.

Personally, I don’t find either woman particularly durable. I think Robbins will probably use her strength to drag Celine down and fight off any sub attempts. If it stays standing, I expect Celine to have some succes tagging Robbins, but Robbins to land more powerful punches and eventually take her down. I’d say Robbins by TKO in the 2nd or a decision.

 

[PolarBearPaulVarelans]

I like that Sarah is getting some recognition and a little promotion from the UFC. It might be a small video but its a start. Hopefully she has a good performance.

Hopefully not. I have money on Bernardo winning a decision. Also, I don't think this is much "promotion", as Moras simply doesn't have the skills to be successful against respectable opposition, and will likely be cut sooner rather than later.

As for the whole Cyborg discussion, it's funny; I agree that Cyborg is top 3 all-time (personally, she is number one for me), but I ALSO agree with the points made by Eater of Souls, and feel he utterly destroyed executionermma in the back-and-forth.

executionermma's problem is that he never, ever concedes anything, even when it's blazingly obvious, and he has to outright lie in the process.

Cyborg is the greatest ever in my view, but I freely admit that she mostly fights against much smaller opponents, and most of the people she beat were not very good.

Instead of arguing against these basic points and making himself and his argument look bad, executionermma would have been better served by agreeing, but then turning around and asking what all-time female fighter HAS had a more impressive resume?

After all, in retrospect, most of the people Ronda Rousey or Megumi Fuji beat at the time weren't good, either.

Anywho, it will probably be a while (if WMMA is even around in its present form by then) before the divisions will be deep and skilled enough to have all-time fighters whose resumes have numerous wins over genuinely good, talented opponents.

 

[executionermma]

top 10 fighters but thats it.

Lol like a win over a top 10 fighter doesn't mean ANYTHING.
Expected it from her haters, not from you Dim, what a non sense.
But let's move on, not wasting my time in this topic anymore.

 

[executionermma]

executionermma's problem is that he never, ever concedes anything, even when it's blazingly obvious, and he has to outright lie in the process.

Never, ever? And you're basing it in...our quick discussion about PFL, where you were wrong and i simple corrected you? Lol.
Seems like someone here is too sensitive. You're jumping into conclusions and making too much of nothing, buddy.

 

[Kaybee]

Cyborg is probably the WMMA GOAT as of right now, and her resume certainly has some names. Unfortunately most of those names are a weight class below her. It'd be like if Valentina's resume was full of wins over the likes of Felice Herrig and Tecia Torres; not bad names to have on your resume but the difference in size would dampen the impact of the wins.

 

[Xuh]

All this back and forth about Cyborg and I'm surprised the R-bomb hasn't been dropped yet.

For me it doesn't matter who she beats next, she will never be a great because she has too much of a physical advantage, and at least a part of that is an illicit physical advantage. And in womyn's sport, that is too much to overcome. I'd rather save the term 'great' for fighters who do it with skillz, not via approximating a man's strength (whether via needles or some kind of 'intergender' condition).

 

[executionermma]

Cyborg is probably the WMMA GOAT as of right now, and her resume certainly has some names. Unfortunately most of those names are a weight class below her. It'd be like if Valentina's resume was full of wins over the likes of Felice Herrig and Tecia Torres; not bad names to have on your resume but the difference in size would dampen the impact of the wins.

See? That's a fair argument to make.

To say that she has only 2 wins that are worth a damn is not.

Anyone that gets to UFC, or at least the vast majority of the fighters, are worth something. Reaching the A league in the sport is much easier in WMMA, but it's still something to be proud of, so even wins over low UFC talent like Lansberg and Yana should be considered, although, with some few asterisks due to the size difference, as you mentioned.

All this back and forth about Cyborg and I'm surprised the R-bomb hasn't been dropped yet.

For me it doesn't matter who she beats next, she will never be a great because she has too much of a physical advantage, and at least a part of that is an illicit physical advantage. And in womyn's sport, that is too much to overcome. I'd rather save the term 'great' for fighters who do it with skillz, not via approximating a man's strength (whether via needles or some kind of 'intergender' condition).

She won the Holly Holm fight due to her superior skillset, and a good gameplan. And that's arguably her best win to date.
Holly was strong enough to hold her in the clinch and to force her back to the fence many times.
I think it's very fair to say that Cyborg strength advantage is pretty much overrated nowadays.

 

[Eater of Souls]

Replying in general to the previous three posts.

I agree that there is no clear WMMA goat due to lack of quality competition. If pressed I would pick Fujii, even though her resume is not that spectacular either. In her defense, she would be a 105'er by today's standards and fought as heavy as 145.

To point out how weak the 145 lbs. division is in perspective, Ronda was being held up as the next challenger for Cyborg after four fights. A total of 138 seconds of fight time. Do I even need to mention Megan Anderson? (brought up the R-word, @Xuh )

Other than Cyborg there has never been a truly skilled women at 145, and Cyborg has only recently earned the definition of skilled, as she has previously just winged in punches and relied on strength, athleticism and endurance. She is and will always be one hell of an athlete.

Some other things I would like to point out. When you compare how Cyborg did against people with common opponents, well, it is not that impressive. She and Ronda both beat Tweet in under a minute. Evinger lost to Ladd in the first, Cyborg in the third. Coenen hung in for four rounds (in one fight) against Cyborg and was subbed in the same amount of time by Tate.

Holly Holm won more rounds against Cyborg than she did against Shevchenko. (I am not saying Shevchenko would beat Cyborg - it would probably be a case of Hulk Smash!!!. I am pointing out how Cyborg does against reasonably skilled competition of reasonable size).

So while she has beat a few people, she has not beat anyone of similar size with any degree of skill. (see previous math about skill of 145 lbs. division).

 

[Xuh]

, Ronda... (brought up the R-word, @Xuh ).

Ah no, by 'R-word' I meant...

 

[Eater of Souls]

Ah no, by 'R-word' I meant...

Oh, I did. It may have been lost in my walls of text. In that case, she failed two drug tests fighting smaller women.



(scale tampering was against a smaller woman as well. So her history of cheating involves cheating to beat up smaller women. Including the four times she missed weight) This is a matter of record, no opinion enters into it.

 

[executionermma]

she has not beat anyone of similar size with any degree of skill

False. Cyborg had maybe about 10 lbs on Holly fight night, but strength wise the difference wasn't even notable. The rest of this post is irrelevant stuff that doesn't mean shit.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A few candidates for PFL's 155 lbs tournament:

- Svetlena Khautova (2-0), 5'8", 31 years old, holds win over FNG's featherweight Zamzagul Fayzallanova (6-1)

- Irina Alekseyeva (0-0), 5'8", 28 years old

 

[Eater of Souls]

Cool photo of Cyborg & Shevchenko. Are they sharing a camp? Joanna & Amanda should post a photo sparring since they're both in Miami.

In answer to your question, Shevchenko is at Cyborg's place in SoCal right now. There is an article about it clearly written by someone who has never watched a fight.

https://fansided.com/2018/10/23/val...rly-finish-after-training-with-cyborg-photos/

Absolute shit article. You were warned.

 

[Tobago Jones]

The last page was hard to read. How anyone can vigorously go to bat for Cyborg is beyond me but each to their own.

 

[thatdude21601]

Woah the next Invicta card is already out. What's happening?
http://www.invictafc.com/2018/10/24...tch-between-jinh-yu-frey-and-minna-grusander/

Atomweight Title: Jinh Yu Frey (7-3) vs. Minna Grusander (6-2)
Strawweight: Danielle Taylor (9-4) vs. Monserrat Ruiz (8-0)
Strawweight: Sharon Jacobson (5-3) vs. Kanako Murata (8-1)
Atomweight: Amber Brown (7-4) vs. Alesha Zappitella (4-0, 1 NC)
Strawweight: Jamie Moyle (4-3) vs. Brianna Van Buren (4-2)
Bantamweight: Sarah Kleczka (2-1) vs. Brittney Victoria (2-0)
Atomweight: Ashley Medina (0-1) vs. Anastasia Nikolakakos (2-0)
Flyweight: Chantel Coates (0-0) and Ashlynn Kleinbeck (0-0)

 

[Xuh]

Wow, Jacobson vs Murata is an A-level matchup

 

[leto1776]

Woah the next Invicta card is already out. What's happening?
http://www.invictafc.com/2018/10/24...tch-between-jinh-yu-frey-and-minna-grusander/

Atomweight Title: Jinh Yu Frey (7-3) vs. Minna Grusander (6-2)
Strawweight: Danielle Taylor (9-4) vs. Monserrat Ruiz (8-0)
Strawweight: Sharon Jacobson (5-3) vs. Kanako Murata (8-1)
Atomweight: Amber Brown (7-4) vs. Alesha Zappitella (4-0, 1 NC)
Strawweight: Jamie Moyle (4-3) vs. Brianna Van Buren (4-2)
Bantamweight: Sarah Kleczka (2-1) vs. Brittney Victoria (2-0)
Atomweight: Ashley Medina (0-1) vs. Anastasia Nikolakakos (2-0)
Flyweight: Chantel Coates (0-0) and Ashlynn Kleinbeck (0-0)

Taylor in the domain against a girl with only one win over an opponent with more than two fights on their record. Seriously, Invicta?

On the other hand, released the full card early, so I can’t complain. Let’s see if Grusander tries to wall and stall the whole time again.

 

[Askafan]

Lots to look forward to with those two Invicta cards, veterans, prospects, UFC rejects fighting for redemption, the teenage Goat decider, a new Mexican, good wrestlers, a couple of title fights.

Btw what happened to Davidsdottir, she used to be a fixture, did the elves take her back? I've given up wondering about Julia Jones though.

 

[Askafan]

Taylor in the domain against a girl with only one win over an opponent with more than two fights on their record. Seriously, Invicta?

Well it's better than Stevenson's 0-17. The girl is 9-0, a wonder Maynard hasn't signed her ..... gals have been booked to set up UFC title fights with a record like that.

 

[msm1981]

Knowing I do follow Sunna Davidsdottir on Instagram she has been
spending time with her Daughter and doing whatever but she did have
a hand or arm issue that kept her out of the gym.

I'm trying to figure out if all of the taller fighters are already signed
elsewhere since at least several of the fighters that fight at Invicta
are 5'1" or less.

 

[Rizz]

Taylor in the domain against a girl with only one win over an opponent with more than two fights on their record. Seriously, Invicta?

On the other hand, released the full card early, so I can’t complain. Let’s see if Grusander tries to wall and stall the whole time again.

I love this new thing about Invicta announcing the next card early. I made sure to let Shannon know it was a good move on when they 1st did it. If anyone else is on twitter I encourage you to do the same so it keeps happening.