Judo Official Judo Thread

Patrick Jane said:
I have to admit, pretty cool combination.

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As tough and cool as this is, it makes me die a little inside to think that as deep as tori is on the penetration step, he could and should have been able to cleanly complete an over/under wrestling style lateral drop with his hands clasped behind uke's back, if not for current IJF grip restrictions. IIRC tori is only allowed to grip the gi/obi with one hand behind uke's back, which is why he applies a one-handed belt grip with other hand merely flat against uke's back?
 
ChickenBrother said:
As tough and cool as this is, it makes me die a little inside to think that as deep as tori is on the penetration step, he could and should have been able to cleanly complete an over/under wrestling style lateral drop with his hands clasped behind uke's back, if not for current IJF grip restrictions. IIRC tori is only allowed to grip the gi/obi with one hand behind uke's back, which is why he applies a one-handed belt grip with other hand merely flat against uke's back?
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I have never heard of that rule. Last rule update i watched a few months ago just specified that bearhugs couldn't clasp hands together. Not sure where you've heard you couldn't grab with both hands behind the back.
 
Intermission said:
But how long do you have to achieve progress? It used to be 10 seconds or something
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When the referee determines there isn't progress. It can vary strongly from ref to ref. I cannot recall there ever being a rule counting seconds in newaza (except for osaekomi, obviously).
 
Patrick Jane said:
I have never heard of that rule. Last rule update i watched a few months ago just specified that bearhugs couldn't clasp hands together. Not sure where you've heard you couldn't grab with both hands behind the back.
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I believe you are correct, good sir. I was being a grumpy old man and misremembered the rule. I recall the bit about one hand gripping the gi in the previous rules but I think it must have been at LEAST one hand gripping in order to clasp hands/arms - so two hands gripping gi was OK. IIRC this used to be allowed:

1747106437186.png


But that is now verboten under the new rules and if you want to bear hug you can only do this or of course a one-handed version of this:

1747106519026.png

www.ijf.org

New Rules: What to Remember

The important IJF Technical Meeting which has just taken place in Istanbul, Turkiye, in the presence of nearly 330 delegates from 79 countries, provided an opportunity to take stock of the rule changes which will take place on the world circuit from the 2025 Paris Grand Slam. Florin Daniel...
www.ijf.org www.ijf.org

So I guess my gripe about not being able to clasp hands was valid but I was incorrect about not being allowed to take gi grips with both hands.
 
ChickenBrother said:
I believe you are correct, good sir. I was being a grumpy old man and misremembered the rule. I recall the bit about one hand gripping the gi in the previous rules but I think it must have been at LEAST one hand gripping in order to clasp hands/arms - so two hands gripping gi was OK. IIRC this used to be allowed:

View attachment 1094817


But that is now verboten under the new rules and if you want to bear hug you can only do this or of course a one-handed version of this:

View attachment 1094819

www.ijf.org

New Rules: What to Remember

The important IJF Technical Meeting which has just taken place in Istanbul, Turkiye, in the presence of nearly 330 delegates from 79 countries, provided an opportunity to take stock of the rule changes which will take place on the world circuit from the 2025 Paris Grand Slam. Florin Daniel...
www.ijf.org www.ijf.org

So I guess my gripe about not being able to clasp hands was valid but I was incorrect about not being allowed to take gi grips with both hands.
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I find clasping hands rules (even in other sports like the weird Karelin loss one) dumb too but fortunately, they don't have a mechanical effect preventing techniques (what annoyed you earlier) this way.

I guess it would technically be kosher to cross your arms when grabbing the belt with two hands (or with one hand and the arm that goes across grabs the gi at the back) to make it even tighter? Not sure if they thought of that.
 
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Patrick Jane said:
I find clasping hands rules (even in other sports like the weird Karelin loss one) dumb too but fortunately, they don't have a mechanical effect preventing techniques (what annoyed you earlier) this way.

I guess it would technically be kosher to cross your arms when grabbing the belt with two hands (or with one hand and the arm that goes across grabs the gi at the back) to make it even tighter? Not sure if they thought of that.
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Personally, I find it quicker and easier to lift and throw uke with hands clasped around them than with any kind of two-handed gi grip, though I hadn't considered your crossed arms option. I think it's due to the closed arm circle - specifically what the IJF rules forbid:

Bear hug in tachi-waza is allowed except with hands or hands and arms clasped, forming a circle which will be penalised with shido.

With a closed arm circle, you're going to have less wasted energy, like how people can press or pull heavier total weight with a barbell (or other rigid bar) vs. dumbbells. Floppy fabric between your grips will give you incrementally less control and more wasted mechanical energy.

The IJF wants to see big throws. We see big throws in the freestyle and greco rulesets with clasped hand bodylocks. So what's the problem?

It is of course possible to modify waza to be compliant but what is the point? That just leads to fake and gay variations that are generally less effective. A few months ago some competition guy was showing me a rules compliant te guruma where you grip above the hips and a modified kuchiki taoshi where you pull uke's sleeve down and grab it between his legs to avoid grabbing his leg. I tried them and they CAN work if you drill them enough but I don't see them ever being as effective as the original technique.

Rant over.
 
ChickenBrother said:
Personally, I find it quicker and easier to lift and throw uke with hands clasped around them than with any kind of two-handed gi grip, though I hadn't considered your crossed arms option. I think it's due to the closed arm circle - specifically what the IJF rules forbid:

Bear hug in tachi-waza is allowed except with hands or hands and arms clasped, forming a circle which will be penalised with shido.

With a closed arm circle, you're going to have less wasted energy, like how people can press or pull heavier total weight with a barbell (or other rigid bar) vs. dumbbells. Floppy fabric between your grips will give you incrementally less control and more wasted mechanical energy.

The IJF wants to see big throws. We see big throws in the freestyle and greco rulesets with clasped hand bodylocks. So what's the problem?

It is of course possible to modify waza to be compliant but what is the point? That just leads to fake and gay variations that are generally less effective. A few months ago some competition guy was showing me a rules compliant te guruma where you grip above the hips and a modified kuchiki taoshi where you pull uke's sleeve down and grab it between his legs to avoid grabbing his leg. I tried them and they CAN work if you drill them enough but I don't see them ever being as effective as the original technique.

Rant over.
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Yeah, i don't really buy into the wasted mechanical energy argument. The only way i can see that being relevant is if you're gonna throw your opponent over your head Wilfried Dietrich style, but that doesn't really happen from the front outside of Greco Roman anyway (for obvious reasons, leg entanglement). The only real significant bear hug throws i have seen in Judo were Sumo style throws forwards or sidewards or overhead throws from the side or back.

That doesn't really excuse such asinine rules though. I don't care about leg grab throws or Kurt Angle moves, but you can't expect two people to wrestle each other and think so many moves ahead as to calculate beforehand every place they might put their hands. Such shit rules just lead to a bunch of accidental shidos. I also don't understand the problem with clasping hands in bear hugs. It's not a problem when you do it from above for a Tawara Gaeshi, but it somehow causes problems from the front?
 
Patrick Jane said:
Yeah, i don't really buy into the wasted mechanical energy argument. The only way i can see that being relevant is if you're gonna throw your opponent over your head Wilfried Dietrich style, but that doesn't really happen from the front outside of Greco Roman anyway (for obvious reasons, leg entanglement). The only real significant bear hug throws i have seen in Judo were Sumo style throws forwards or sidewards or overhead throws from the side or back.

That doesn't really excuse such asinine rules though. I don't care about leg grab throws or Kurt Angle moves, but you can't expect two people to wrestle each other and think so many moves ahead as to calculate beforehand every place they might put their hands. Such shit rules just lead to a bunch of accidental shidos. I also don't understand the problem with clasping hands in bear hugs. It's not a problem when you do it from above for a Tawara Gaeshi, but it somehow causes problems from the front?
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Preferences are of course subjective, but I do feel like in your vid in post #2279, tori would have been able to complete the throw at 0:15, had he had his hands clasped and thus been able to turn uke more forcibly with his "enclosed arm circle." As it was, the required change of direction and the gi slack between his hands made this impossible and he had to chain to something else. No back arch throw is done straight up and over, but starts at an angle to and then turning across uke's centerline.

Here's the same throw executed in greco with clasped hands. Incidentally @KBE6EKCTAH_CCP this dude is Georgian.



Not trying to turn this into a gi vs no gi or wrestling vs. Judo debate because there are variations to every technique. I just feel like clasped hands or no clasped hands, gi grips or no, competitors should be free to perform techniques however they wish, so long as they produce acceptable results and don't unduly endanger their opponent.
 
ChickenBrother said:
Preferences are of course subjective, but I do feel like in your vid in post #2279, tori would have been able to complete the throw at 0:15, had he had his hands clasped and thus been able to turn uke more forcibly with his "enclosed arm circle." As it was, the required change of direction and the gi slack between his hands made this impossible and he had to chain to something else.
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I just completely disagree with that because i think the problem with that throw was exclusively in toris right leg not lifting explosively enough to prevent Uke landing on one leg. It's like when you perform an Ushiro goshi: you can lift as high as you want and twist the torso around as much as you want, if your Uke's legs aren't at an upward angle, he can land on (at least one of) his feet. Of course you could sloppily wrestle him down if he lands with a backward bent back, but you're not gonna finish the throw.

The problem with the throw as opposed to the wrestling one wasn't the upper body either in my view, it was the more flexible Uke. See how in the Judo match, uke can stand on the ground despite being almost completely split legged (up to the knee at least)? In the wrestling video, the guy in red can keep his foot straight until the marked angle and the further lift forces his leg to move horizontally before touching the ground. Pardon the garbage quality (vid was pixelated on facebook and couldn't be paused without ads in pic in embedded version).

1.jpg
 
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Patrick Jane said:
I just completely disagree with that because i think the problem with that throw was exclusively in toris right leg not lifting explosively enough to prevent Uke landing on one leg. It's like when you perform an Ushiro goshi: you can lift as high as you want and twist the torso around as much as you want, if your Uke's legs aren't at an upward angle, he can land on (at least one of) his feet. Of course you could sloppily wrestle him down if he lands with a backward bent back, but you're not gonna finish the throw.
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Lol this is where it gets into second guessing another athlete's style and preferences, and style vs. style between competitors. There's a counter to every attack and counters to counters but if a clasped hands back arch throw is executed quickly and explosively enough from proper position, uke shouldn't be able to post out his leg to stop it because he's already earning frequent flyer miles.

But that's academic. I don't believe either clasped hands or gi grips are always and everywhere the better option. It simply depends how you like to do the technique and how uke responds. Judo needs to take some cues from Craig Jones and let athletes choose for themselves.

1747163568284.png
 
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Patrick Jane said:
I find clasping hands rules (even in other sports like the weird Karelin loss one) dumb too but fortunately, they don't have a mechanical effect preventing techniques (what annoyed you earlier) this way.

I guess it would technically be kosher to cross your arms when grabbing the belt with two hands (or with one hand and the arm that goes across grabs the gi at the back) to make it even tighter? Not sure if they thought of that.
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Every time I think about going back to judo from bjj I find out about another bizarre gripping rule that makes me stick with doing standup vs wrestlers and judoka under bjj rules.
 
shunyata said:
Every time I think about going back to judo from bjj I find out about another bizarre gripping rule that makes me stick with doing standup vs wrestlers and judoka under bjj rules.
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TBH i find that rules get a bit exagerated around here but in practice it‘s not really a big concern.
 
shunyata said:
Every time I think about going back to judo from bjj I find out about another bizarre gripping rule that makes me stick with doing standup vs wrestlers and judoka under bjj rules.
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This is the way. But cross-training at a legit Judo gym is worth it. Nuances of throws, set ups and chains with gi grips including kuzushi are best learned from a Judoka and ideally sandan+. All of that is like a superpower vs. regular BJJ guys.


Palpatine-Not-Jedi.gif
 
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