Judo Official Judo Thread

[ChickenBrother]

Ouch, the dislocation landing was gnarly.

Yeesh, shades of Coleman vs. Shogun. Terrible habit tossing proper ukemi out the window because you'd rather no sell opponent's takedown. And I'll never understand the no handshake due to national identity thing. It's the fucking Olympics FFS and anyway it's not like this dude personally fucked over the Palestinians. His coach/sponsor probably made him do it for media optics.

 

[Osculater]

Ouch, the dislocation landing was gnarly.

Allah was not on his side that day

 

[Osculater]

Allah was not on his side that day

Ps. What a noob by bracing his fall with his arm out

 

[Emanuele]

It reminds Yoshida in Sydney 2000.

 

[shunyata]

Ouch, the dislocation landing was gnarly.

I get that he doesn't want to be ippon'd, but that was a fucking retarded time to try to arm post like that.

 

[Deleted member 449757]

I get that he doesn't want to be ippon'd, but that was a fucking retarded time to try to arm post like that.

I think he tried to turn around so he'd land on his face instead of back. Probably should have turned the other way though.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I think he tried to turn around so he'd land on his face instead of back. Probably should have turned the other way though.

From that camera angle, it looks like he's kinda hosed either way. Schmailov has far side lapel grip + o uchi gari on uke's left side so he couldn't really turn to his right. Like Kurt Osiander likes to say, bro if you're in this position, you fucked up 10 seconds ago.

 

[ChickenBrother]

sure, but turtle still happens in those competition all the time. and they certainly dont get punished at the speed at which judo shido's or stand ups from newaza happen.

i'd bet making turtles shido'able would function to make people more hesitant to throw.

removing mate? you might as well merge all grappling sports into one.


judo is a throw focused art with submissions. and its practitioners want it to emphasize throwing.


imo, a more reasonable solution would be to make back mount an osaekomi to help discourage indiscriminant turtle bail outs and stalling.

Strong disagree. You will never see anyone going for jujigatame ever again with such rules.

I'm sorry that was unclear:

the expectation would be that after any throw attempt both parties either proceed immediately into groundwork or stand themselves back up. the referee lets this play out in a dynamic manner.

if one or both parties becomes non-combative during the engagement (e.g. turtling with no effort to improve position, laying in a non-pinning position and looking at their referee) -> matte -> shido for non-combativity.

scrambles would play out better if leg grabs came back because in the absence of leg grabs a failed seoi doesn't really have a lot of viable options to stand up out of. maybe combat stand up? and this would solve the false attack problem because anybody who's just dropping with reckless abandon puts themselves in a terrible position.

Exactly. You can mess up an attack, turtle, and then immediately drive for a low single and that's not inactivity. Going belly down and waiting for the ref is inactivity.

The problem is there's no simple fix as long as the IJF keeps the stupid AF restriction on leg grabs AND wants to encourage TD attempts. Stand ups from turtle are like the slip rule in freestyle and GR (which also has pros and cons). Turtle is an inferior position so athletes would be much more reluctant to risk attacking if they had to work their way out of a shitty bottom position. Sure it would keep them honest on throw attempts but every high level Judo match would look like Severn vs. Shamrock 2.

Spamming shitty attacks is exhausting and for normal athletes, will deter them from going overboard. But in the Olympics, we're seeing super athletes with pornstar cardio who could eat a peach for hours or spam shitty seois for days before they get tired.

But yeah, it kills me seeing judoka just going face down ass up in turtle AND top guy not even bothering to attempt to grapple because they're not afforded time to do jack shit on the ground.

Best solution IMO is bring back leg grabs with 3 second time limit before shido, as with other unconventional grips. If a throw attempt results in either tory or uke ending up in turtle, they get 10 seconds of mat time to show progress i.e. top guy turns turtle guy over, is starting to pass guard, progressing toward a sub, turtle guy is wrestling up into a single, etc. And mate + stand up is only called if there's 10 seconds of stalemate with no improvement in position from either man.

 

[shunyata]

The problem is there's no simple fix as long as the IJF keeps the stupid AF restriction on leg grabs AND wants to encourage TD attempts. Stand ups from turtle are like the slip rule in freestyle and GR (which also has pros and cons). Turtle is an inferior position so athletes would be much more reluctant to risk attacking if they had to work their way out of a shitty bottom position. Sure it would keep them honest on throw attempts but every high level Judo match would look like Severn vs. Shamrock 2.

Spamming shitty attacks is exhausting and for normal athletes, that's going to deter them somewhat from going overboard. But in the Olympics, we're seeing super athletes with pornstar cardio who could eat a peach for hours or spam shitty seois for days before they get tired.

But yeah, it kills me seeing judoka just going face down ass up in turtle AND top guy not even bothering to attempt to grapple because they're not afforded time to do jack shit on the ground.

Best solution IMO is bring back leg grabs with 3 second time limit before shido, as with other unconventional grips. If a throw attempt results in either tory or uke ending up in turtle, they get 10 seconds of mat time to show progress i.e. top guy turns turtle guy over, is starting to pass guard, progressing toward a sub, turtle guy is wrestling up into a single, etc. And mate + stand up is only called if there's 10 seconds of stalemate with no improvement in position from either man.

IMO all of this but bring back koka, open up the grip options, give 20 seconds to work / scramble off a failed throw AND give the bottom player a koka if you stand them up from a stalled turtle or belly down position.

Make people fight their way back up.

 

[Deleted member 449757]

The problem is there's no simple fix as long as the IJF keeps the stupid AF restriction on leg grabs AND wants to encourage TD attempts. Stand ups from turtle are like the slip rule in freestyle and GR (which also has pros and cons). Turtle is an inferior position so athletes would be much more reluctant to risk attacking if they had to work their way out of a shitty bottom position. Sure it would keep them honest on throw attempts but every high level Judo match would look like Severn vs. Shamrock 2.

Spamming shitty attacks is exhausting and for normal athletes, that's going to deter them somewhat from going overboard. But in the Olympics, we're seeing super athletes with pornstar cardio who could eat a peach for hours or spam shitty seois for days before they get tired.

But yeah, it kills me seeing judoka just going face down ass up in turtle AND top guy not even bothering to attempt to grapple because they're not afforded time to do jack shit on the ground.

Best solution IMO is bring back leg grabs with 3 second time limit before shido, as with other unconventional grips. If a throw attempt results in either tory or uke ending up in turtle, they get 10 seconds of mat time to show progress i.e. top guy turns turtle guy over, is starting to pass guard, progressing toward a sub, turtle guy is wrestling up into a single, etc. And mate + stand up is only called if there's 10 seconds of stalemate with no improvement in position from either man.

Someone who has no idea about Judo but used to be a wrestler gave a very interesting suggestion in the comments of a YouTube video. He said that to him, Judo looks like rock, paper, scissors because of how quick you can lose. If you want people to be more offensive, the points required to win a bout should be way higher so offense will not immediately risk a loss but will lead to a win if you capitalize on it more often than you fail.

 

[ChickenBrother]

IMO all of this but bring back koka, open up the grip options, give 20 seconds to work / scramble off a failed throw AND give the bottom player a koka if you stand them up from a stalled turtle or belly down position.

Make people fight their way back up.

I think you mean give TOP player a koka if you stand them up from stalled turtle or belly down? Problem with that is it discourages throw attempts because all else equal, riding is easier than escaping, especially in gi. The objective of the slip rule in wrestling or the turtle stand up abomination in Judo is to not punish tory for valid throw attempts.

But I'd be down with this if there was no koka/shido awarded for stand ups from any form of guard. That would make it closer to 90's era Judo when refs gave you more time to work on the ground. If you're on bottom and you wanted a stand up, you could go closed guard or lockdown HG and stall, but you'd at least have to play guard and deny guard passes which is closer to the martial form of grappling.

 

[shunyata]

I think you mean give TOP player a koka if you stand them up from stalled turtle or belly down? Problem with that is it discourages throw attempts because all else equal, riding is easier than escaping, especially in gi. The objective of the slip rule in wrestling or the turtle stand up abomination in Judo is to not punish tory for valid throw attempts.

But I'd be down with this if there was no koka/shido awarded for stand ups from any form of guard. That would make it closer to 90's era Judo when refs gave you more time to work on the ground. If you're on bottom and you wanted a stand up, you could go closed guard or lockdown HG and stall, but you'd at least have to play guard and deny guard passes which is closer to the martial form of grappling.

I get you, but my mind was coming from "something needs to be done about dive and stall". Yes it's easier to ride than to fight back into the legs and standup, but the top player pinning someone face down is doing nothing wrong. The player waiting on their belly is doing something wrong fight wise, so if they aren't trying to stand up they get a koka. The idea being to strongly disincentivize waiting in bad position, but without fueling the penalty game. If they're stood up from guard, no koka. Just for needing to be rescued from belly down or inactive turtle.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Someone who has no idea about Judo but used to be a wrestler gave a very interesting suggestion in the comments of a YouTube video. He said that to him, Judo looks like rock, paper, scissors because of how quick you can lose. If you want people to be more offensive, the points required to win a bout should be way higher so offense will not immediately risk a loss but will lead to a win if you capitalize on it more often than you fail.

I like it. I've never liked the "instant win" aspect of ippon throws because it breeds terrible habits making newaza an afterthought. I just note that making Judo scoring more point-based brings it closer to wrestling or sambo - which I'd actually prefer.

I get you, but my mind was coming from "something needs to be done about dive and stall". Yes it's easier to ride than to fight back into the legs and standup, but the top player pinning someone face down is doing nothing wrong. The player waiting on their belly is doing something wrong fight wise, so if they aren't trying to stand up they get a koka. The idea being to strongly disincentivize waiting in bad position, but without fueling the penalty game. If they're stood up from guard, no koka. Just for needing to be rescued from belly down or inactive turtle.

I just note that if that happens, you dramatically increase the prevalence and importance of newaza - which suits hardcore grapplers like those of us in this thread, but would drive away mainstream casuals who don't want to see dudes rolling around on the ground.

But if we're talking unicorn hybrid rulesets, one I really like is "Judo Submission Grappling" which USA Judo has been holding tournaments in but of course hasn't really taken off. It's a nod to both Judo and BJJ scoring with point values assigned to everything. I started a thread on this a few years ago:

Judo Submission Grappling Added as An Exhibition Category at the 2021 USA Judo President’s Cup

In an effort to broaden the reach and participation of competitors at the 2021 USA Judo President’s Cup, an exhibition category has been added called “Judo Submission Grappling” (JSG). A combination of grappling arts, JSG encourages the big throws of Judo with the ground fighting and submission holds of ne waza.

Rules Overview
The objective outcome of the match is to win by points or submission. The matches are four minutes in length with a 1-minute overtime if necessary. Competitors will be grouped into divisions based on age, weight, gender, experience, and belt ranks. If no points are scored in the regular match time or overtime, both players are disqualified from the tournament. Penalties are given for unsportsmanlike conduct. Three unsportsmanlike penalties equal a disqualification. Combativeness is important - both players need to attempt takedowns while standing and submissions while in ne waza. Ne waza is continuous if the downed player has grips on a standing player. Once grips have been broken the down player must stand and engage in tachi waza (takedowns). Guard pulling is not allowed and two points are given to the opponent as a takedown. Leg locks will not be allowed in Kid’s or novice divisions. Straight ankle locks and kneebars are allowed for blue belts and above.

Scoring for Throws & Takedowns
4 points: High amplitude throws or takedowns (feet come off the floor and you land on back or side).
2 points: Any wrestling takedown, or judo yuko throw. Snap downs where you spin and take the back.
Scoring for Ne Waza
2 points: Guard pass and back control
1 point: Mount, knee on belly, sweep, Submission attack/attempt where opponent is in danger

"Judo Submission Grappling" USA Judo hybrid rules

USA Judo is doing a "Judo Submission Grappling" division at their 2021 national championships. Ruleset looks interesting with guard pulls allowed but awarding 2 points to opponent. TDs score either 4 points (high amplitude) or 2 points but CAN NOT end the match. Guard pass or back mount = 2...

forums.sherdog.com

 

[BJ@LW&WW]

The problem is there's no simple fix as long as the IJF keeps the stupid AF restriction on leg grabs AND wants to encourage TD attempts. Stand ups from turtle are like the slip rule in freestyle and GR (which also has pros and cons). Turtle is an inferior position so athletes would be much more reluctant to risk attacking if they had to work their way out of a shitty bottom position. Sure it would keep them honest on throw attempts but every high level Judo match would look like Severn vs. Shamrock 2.

Spamming shitty attacks is exhausting and for normal athletes, will deter them from going overboard. But in the Olympics, we're seeing super athletes with pornstar cardio who could eat a peach for hours or spam shitty seois for days before they get tired.

But yeah, it kills me seeing judoka just going face down ass up in turtle AND top guy not even bothering to attempt to grapple because they're not afforded time to do jack shit on the ground.

Best solution IMO is bring back leg grabs with 3 second time limit before shido, as with other unconventional grips. If a throw attempt results in either tory or uke ending up in turtle, they get 10 seconds of mat time to show progress i.e. top guy turns turtle guy over, is starting to pass guard, progressing toward a sub, turtle guy is wrestling up into a single, etc. And mate + stand up is only called if there's 10 seconds of stalemate with no improvement in position from either man.

i agree there definitely is no simple fix. anyone who thinks there is simply doesnt understand the complexity of attempting to balance a ruleset for a specific purpose

i disagree that the reason why many judoka don't bother to attack turtle is because theyre not given time to attack. i think the reason is because its too easy to defend and stall an attack attempt, when back takes have little value. i think if you forced a minimum 10 seconds before calling a newaza stalemate mate, most judoka will still not attack the same type of turtles they choose not to attack now, and probably fatigued judoka will use that time to hold the turtle and rest.

agree on bringing back leg grab for many reasons, as do almost every judoka ive ever trained with. but bringing back leg grabs doesnt solve much in this regard imo.

 

[ChickenBrother]

i agree there definitely is no simple fix. anyone who thinks there is simply doesnt understand the complexity of attempting to balance a ruleset for a specific purpose

i disagree that the reason why many judoka don't bother to attack turtle is because theyre not given time to attack. i think the reason is because its too easy to defend and stall an attack attempt, when back takes have little value. i think if you forced a minimum 10 seconds before calling a newaza stalemate mate, most judoka will still not attack the same type of turtles they choose not to attack now, and probably fatigued judoka will use that time to hold the turtle and rest.

agree on bringing back leg grab for many reasons, as do almost every judoka ive ever trained with. but bringing back leg grabs doesnt solve much in this regard imo.

I hear you on back mount being worthless in Judo. But given scoring hierarchy, calling it osaekomi would be a stretch. Unless they bring back yukos, I think it should score somewhere between koka/shido and waza-ari i.e. it should matter for scoring but by itself shouldn't be able to end a match unless uke achieves a sub.

The impact of leg grabs is that current rules prohibit chaining leg grabs from newaza into tachi waza or vice versa. Currently leg grabs are forbidden in tachi waza but not newaza - you can grab uke's legs/pants to turn him, pass guard or pin. But it's possible for one opponent to be in tachi waza (because he's standing) with other guy in newaza (because he has at least one knee or hand grounded). In that situation, standing guy can grab grounded guy's pants but grounded guy can't touch standing guy's pants - because he's in tachi waza.

And probably the most viable attack from turtle is wrestling up into a single leg which is allowed under current IJF rules. But even if turtle guy does that, he has to let go as soon as other guy is back to his feet in tachi waza and can't use it to score any throw points. And of course there are no points for stand ups or reversals from bottom so it's pointless for turtle guy to work for anything. Barring a noob peterson roll, the best turtle guy can achieve is a stand up which is worth nothing. And granbys and sit outs are much less viable in gi than no gi.

So to incentivize turtle guy to work for anything, you pretty much have to bring back leg grab TDs from standing.

As for giving top guy more time to attack turtle, I think this could work if you 1) reward back mount with some kind of score and/or 2) allow mat return scoring like in freestyle and GR. In gi, it is more viable to lift turtle uke off the ground with any combination of belt, lapel and pants grips. Imagine the gutwrench suplexes aka Karelin specials we would see if players chose to remain stationary in passive turtle.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

I'm afraid the only way we'll have any major changes to the rules is if the IOC says the judo was shit during this Olympics.

 

[RJ Green]

Judo's been pretty shit for a while. I feel like we've wasted the talent of a generation on a ruleset that doesn't even facilitate what the pedants claim it's there for.

Hot take: Teddy isn't the GOAT because he never had to deal with the most effective counters to his game. He's still strong as shit - he's Teddy Riner - but his opponents have been deprived of the best tools for the job. Teddy's been able to just slap a high collar grip and waggle his ass in for uchi/osoto for the past 16 years. He's never had to defend Morote Gari, Kata Guruma, Te Guruma, or Sukui Nage.

The majority of Judo this Olympics has been whiffed throws and complaining at the referee. How dynamic and exciting.

 

[Human Bass]

Judo's been pretty shit for a while. I feel like we've wasted the talent of a generation on a ruleset that doesn't even facilitate what the pedants claim it's there for.

Hot take: Teddy isn't the GOAT because he never had to deal with the most effective counters to his game. He's still strong as shit - he's Teddy Riner - but his opponents have been deprived of the best tools for the job. Teddy's been able to just slap a high collar grip and waggle his ass in for uchi/osoto for the past 16 years. He's never had to defend Morote Gari, Kata Guruma, Te Guruma, or Sukui Nage.

The majority of Judo this Olympics has been whiffed throws and complaining at the referee. How dynamic and exciting.

Just another shido right now in azeirbajan vs cuba lol

 

[Human Bass]

Riner by o soto for the 1000th time, just as @RJ Green predicted lol

 

[ChickenBrother]

Judo's been pretty shit for a while. I feel like we've wasted the talent of a generation on a ruleset that doesn't even facilitate what the pedants claim it's there for.

+1000

I recently returned to formal training at a Judo gym after many years away, to properly introduce my son to it. And unless they've wrestled, none of the players under 30 have had to sprawl to defend a TD. The main coach is a 30-something yodan who has been teaching a foot sweep chain that starts with a "stab" o uchi gari feint intended to get uke to step back, setting up de ashi harai to o soto on the opposite side. The last two steps are super legit but offering up your leg without hitting an actual o uchi or ko uchi could and should be a red carpet invitation to High Crotch City. Ditto for the sleeve grip break of pulling your hand and arm straight back like you're running your hand through your hair. Those things only work in post-2010 safe space Judo rules.

I do appreciate no leg grabs has increased the prevalence of foot sweeps and trips in TD chains, but the bullshit that's being taught and learned to get around leg grabs is possibly even worse from a martial standpoint than pulling guard.

And then there's the insanity of having to train at 3 separate gyms with my son for wrestling, BJJ and Judo so we can get TDs into subs in both gi and no gi.

Hot take: Teddy isn't the GOAT because he never had to deal with the most effective counters to his game. He's still strong as shit - he's Teddy Riner - but his opponents have been deprived of the best tools for the job. Teddy's been able to just slap a high collar grip and waggle his ass in for uchi/osoto for the past 16 years. He's never had to defend Morote Gari, Kata Guruma, Te Guruma, or Sukui Nage.

I've always thought the leg grab ban came at the perfect time for Riner's prime. But on balance Riner won his first senior worlds in 2007 when leg grabs were above table. His game has definitely benefitted from no leg grabs but I also think 310+ lbs of beef sprawling on your morote gari attempt would be tough to get around. But yeah, I'm REALLY curious what his record would have looked like had his heyday been in the 90's and 00's.