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Judo Official Judo Thread

I'm catching the Olympics love, for a change.

The refereeing during Khyar vs Rashnonezhad was fucking egregious.
 
Man judo blows. I've been working on some techniques for my standup grappling for a while and I now came to realize that I've never been bothered to watch full matches and therefore was not aware of how bad of a combat sport Judo is due to the utterly stupid ruleset.

I love the Olympics and have been really hyped to watch the Judo comp but man that excitement vanished in minutes.

As this is the Judo thread I hope some people here have the knowledge to give me their take and maybe put some things into perspective, but I have made a few observations thus far which give me a real distaste for this state of Judo.

To me it appears that the absolutely dominant strategy is to dive for either Seoi Nage or Tomoe Nage.
This seems to guarantee two things that seem critical to winning at Judo but are absolutely moronic in combat context imo.
These two techniques are virtually uncounterable as the attacker can just throw himself in a terrible position and therefore can't be put in that position by the opponents technique anymore.
The second point linked to that seems to be that these half assed and early-on abolished attempts result in yellows for the opponent as he's apparantly 'not attacking enough'.

These two appear to chain together perfectly and I've now seen a whole bunch of matches that go into OT and the entire strategy from the very beginning just seems to be to grab a sleeve or two and either belly flop yourself or pull guard as often and as little committing as possible in order to get the opponent yellow carded for inactivity.

Is this as superior of a strategy as I'm currently perceiving it to be or am I mislead by my distaste for the belly flopping?
 
Judo really needs to allow mix of leg and upper body grabs. I know only going for the legs can be bad for the sport, but mixing leg and upper body would allow for a much better variety of atks
 
Banana Tree's Nemesis said:
Man judo blows. I've been working on some techniques for my standup grappling for a while and I now came to realize that I've never been bothered to watch full matches and therefore was not aware of how bad of a combat sport Judo is due to the utterly stupid ruleset.

I love the Olympics and have been really hyped to watch the Judo comp but man that excitement vanished in minutes.

As this is the Judo thread I hope some people here have the knowledge to give me their take and maybe put some things into perspective, but I have made a few observations thus far which give me a real distaste for this state of Judo.

To me it appears that the absolutely dominant strategy is to dive for either Seoi Nage or Tomoe Nage.
This seems to guarantee two things that seem critical to winning at Judo but are absolutely moronic in combat context imo.
These two techniques are virtually uncounterable as the attacker can just throw himself in a terrible position and therefore can't be put in that position by the opponents technique anymore.
The second point linked to that seems to be that these half assed and early-on abolished attempts result in yellows for the opponent as he's apparantly 'not attacking enough'.

These two appear to chain together perfectly and I've now seen a whole bunch of matches that go into OT and the entire strategy from the very beginning just seems to be to grab a sleeve or two and either belly flop yourself or pull guard as often and as little committing as possible in order to get the opponent yellow carded for inactivity.

Is this as superior of a strategy as I'm currently perceiving it to be or am I mislead by my distaste for the belly flopping?
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From the matches I've seen, agree spamming drop knee seoi seems to be the dominant strategy. You keep doing that into a shitty turtle or freestyle par terre position and deny opponent the chance to attack AND he isn't even afforded time to attack the back because refs keep standing it up after like 2 seconds. But spamming tomoe nage (or sumi gaeshi) I think is less of a hack because it puts you on your back and (as opposed to turtle), only 1 smash pass away from having your guard passed for osaekomi.

But the downside is this is more exhausting for you than your opponent, if you keep exploding into half-assed attacks and he just flops on top of you. He's getting more shidos but he's also going to be fresher when golden score starts.

But still, yeah athletes are trying to run up opponent's stall shidos so they have 2 and you have 1 or none. That way opponent is desperate to avoid 3rd shido and HAS to keep attacking, which could leave him open for a counter-attack.

They could address this by giving more time to work on the ground - maybe 10 or 20 seconds to attack the back so tori gets punished for spamming shitty attacks that put him into turtle. But even still, gaming the rules happens in every combat sport although IMO it's particularly egregious in Judo under the current bullshit ruleset.
 
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ChickenBrother said:
From the matches I've seen, agree spamming drop knee seoi seems to be the dominant strategy. You keep doing that into a shitty turtle or freestyle par terre position and you deny your opponent the chance to attack AND he isn't even afforded time to attack the back because refs keep standing it up back up after like 2 seconds. But spamming tomoe nage (or sumi gaeshi) I think is less of a hack because it would put you on your back and (as opposed to turtle), only 1 smash pass away from having your guard passed for osaekomi.

But the downside is this strategy is more exhausting for you than for your opponent, if you keep exploding into half-assed attacks and he just flops on top of you. He's getting more shidos but he's also going to be fresher when golden score starts.

But even still, yeah I think athletes are trying to run up opponent's stalling shidos so they have 2 and you have 1 or none. That way opponent is desperate to avoid 3rd shido and HAS to keep attacking, which could leave him open for a counter-attack.

They could address this by giving more time to work on the ground - maybe 10 or 20 seconds to attack the back so tori gets punished for spamming shitty attacks that end up with him in turtle. But even still, gaming the rules happens in every combat sport although IMO it's particularly egregious in Judo under the current bullshit ruleset.
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Hey folks!

Watched a few medal matches and 100% am disappointed in the constant shido game and the lack of time (and willingness) to engage on the ground. Was watching on the mess deck at lunch and had a hard time defending what I was seeing to a bunch of people who have never played.

Not a good look IMO.
 
Patrick Jane said:
The Garrigos / Nagayama decision was an embarrassment. And the handshake refusal too. Absolute abortion of a match.

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Holy WWE refs don't really do anything Batman. That's as blatant as it gets:




I didn't see the whole match but was it established and clear the ref was going to stand back up? Had either one of them been racking up shidos, and how long had they spent in newaza up to this point?
 
ChickenBrother said:
Holy WWE refs don't really do anything Batman. That's as blatant as it gets:




I didn't see the whole match but was it established and clear the ref was going to stand back up? Had either one of them been racking up shidos, and how long had they spent in newaza up to this point?
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There were no shidos i believe and the entire match up to that point consisted of an endless circle of throw attempts on both sides which would usually end up with Garrigos climbing on Nagayama's back and trying to either turn him over or strangle him which Nagayama rabidly defended (like 8 times or so). Each time Newaza lasted about 15 seconds before them standing back up (with the ref not in the camera frame, so not even very close). The majority of the total match time was spent in Newaza up to this point. Ironically, the final time, the ref was very close (Garrigos' head was basically over her foot) and she said mate multiple times, even bowing down to get closer to Garrigos.
 
Patrick Jane said:
There were no shidos i believe and the entire match up to that point consisted of an endless circle of throw attempts on both sides which would usually end up with Garrigos climbing on Nagayama's back and trying to either turn him over or strangle him which Nagayama rabidly defended (like 8 times or so). Each time Newaza lasted about 15 seconds before them standing back up (with the ref not in the camera frame, so not even very close). The majority of the total match time was spent in Newaza up to this point. Ironically, the final time, the ref was very close (Garrigos' head was basically over her foot) and she said mate multiple times, even bowing down to get closer to Garrigos.
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I guess it depends somewhat on context and how they ended up there, but do you think the ref was correct in calling mate at that point? Agree Garrigos looks like the villain here but from his perspective, was this a ref error in ordering stand up when the sub was already sunk? Of course it's also possible Nagayama only went out because he stopped defending when he heard mate because he thought they were getting a reset.
 
ChickenBrother said:
I guess it depends somewhat on context and how they ended up there, but do you think the ref was correct in calling mate at that point? Agree Garrigos looks like the villain here but from his perspective, was this a ref error in ordering stand up when the sub was already sunk? Of course it's also possible Nagayama only went out because he stopped defending when he heard mate because he thought they were getting a reset.
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First of all just so we're clear: the hold used was sodeguruma-jime and not juji-jime as the summary video i posted suggests. Garrigos was trying to apply that same hold (with no success) multiple times throughout the match. At the time the ref said mate, Nagayama was lying on his back with Garrigos on top of him. Nagayama had BOTH his arms inside the hold so it was not a very tight strangle yet. After Nagayama realized the ref said mate, he tried to stand back up and in the process, pulled both his arms out of the hold and turned over. So while he was trying to get up and had his hands removed from the strangle defense already, Garrigos, now lying on his back, still held the sodeguruma jime which was now tight around Nagayamas throat until Nagayama passed out.

I'm praying the IJF or Olympic committee or whatever the fuck don't send John Wick after me for daring to post an image from them but here you go for reference:

1.jpg
 
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Patrick Jane said:
First of all just so we're clear: the hold used was sodeguruma-jime and not juji-jime as the summary video i posted suggests. Garrigos was trying to apply that same hold (with no success) multiple times throughout the match. At the time the ref said mate, Nagayama was lying on his back with Garrigos on top of him. Nagayama had BOTH his arms inside the hold so it was not a very tight strangle yet. After Nagayama realized the ref said mate, he tried to stand back up and in the process, pulled both his arms out of the hold and turned over. So while he was trying to get up and had his hands removed from the strangle defense already, Garrigos, now lying on his back, still held the sodeguruma jime which was now tight around Nagayamas throat until Nagayama passed out.

I'm praying the IJF or Olympic committee or whatever the fuck don't send John Wick after me for daring to post an image from them but here you go for reference:

View attachment 1055403
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Holy cow that's egregious. Especially with sode guruma jime/ezekiel choke, if you don't defend it properly for 2 seconds, you're going out.

What do you think are the odds this match outcome gets reviewed and overturned? Given the match has already played out, I suppose if anything it would be Garrigos losing by DQ due to disobeying ref command?
 
ChickenBrother said:
Holy cow that's egregious. Especially with sode guruma jime/ezekiel choke, if you don't defend it properly for 2 seconds, you're going out.

What do you think are the odds this match outcome gets reviewed and overturned? Given the match has already played out, I suppose if anything it would be Garrigos losing by DQ due to disobeying ref command?
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Zero Percent anything gets overturned. If i remember correctly, both of them are already bronze medalists after continuing in the tournament and nobody is gonna untangle that mess again.

Garrigos explained that he didn't keep the hold on purpose but couldn't hear the mate because of the loud crowd (i'm gonna press x to doubt that one). But to his defense, i can see how you might overfocus a bit on finishing your hold when you're in the actual olympics. But how the hell the ref did not call hansoku-make but ippon on that is absolutely beyond me. The worst i can say about Garrigos is that he should have been disqualified. But that incompetent referee should be fired for that decision. And since Garrigos received multiple death threats from japanese people after the event, the ref has some responsibility in this mess.
 
Wow!

Nagase managed to defend his -81 kg gold medal! I wouldn't have thought that he would be the first person to get back-to-back golds in that division
 
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