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Not another Gracie thread.... (Warning: n00b post!)

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by maDKient, Oct 27, 2010.

  1. maDKient

    maDKient Blue Belt

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    There's so much content on the Gracie family here to the point it's quite overwhelming but highly interesting.

    After reading through the threads, it's clear that there is a rift between the family members. In short, what is the reason? Is it merely over who claims to be the originator of BJJ and who's tarnishing the art and etc.??? Or is there more?

    They should do a reality show on this clan, the drama is worth recording even to the mainstream.
     
  2. Lutador011

    Lutador011 Blue Belt

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    in before the GJJ/BJJ debate and probably some GI/NOGI

    Anyway one of the biggest rifts Rorion Gracie who maintains that Gracie JJ is a self defense art and different from BJJ which is a sport. He runs Gracie Academy.

    He's been in fights with his brothers and relatives over the use of the name "Gracie JJ" (which I think he's pattented) and has been given a lot of criticism for giving on-line blue belt tests for $$$

    My info comes 99% from sherdog. Hopfully someone who's a better expert will soon show up in this thread
     
  3. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    It's between Rorion Gracie and everyone else, basically. He claims that his academy is the only one that teaches his father's style of Jiu Jitsu. He has trademarked "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" forcing everyone else to use Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or their own name i.e. Renzo Gracie Jiu Jitsu. Rorion's sons are in that group as well, and his brothers (Royce, Rickson, Royler, Relson) are still on solid terms with him, but they're not affiliated with his academy, don't say the kinds of things he says, and are generally on good terms with the rest of the family.

    When Carlson Sr. was alive, he was constantly on the outs with various family members. Part of this started because he was the first one to teach and train "outsiders" (non-Gracies) the real stuff, and developed his own team of fighters. There were rivalries from the Carlson lineage and the other guys at various times. You may recall Wallid Ismail as a good example, and his fights with Ryan, as well as matches against Royce and Renzo.

    Also consider that it's a huge family, and that a lot of the people you hear about are probably very distant cousins and see/talk to each other maybe once every few years. Might have been different when everyone was in Brazil and it was more like a clan, but not so much anymore.
     
  4. maDKient

    maDKient Blue Belt

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    Very interesting.

    You can pick and choose your friends but you certainly not your family lol.

    So if I wanted to learn the more self defense orientated JJ, I should seek the 'patented' Gracie Jiu Jitsu system or is that too much of a generalised statement? And is correct to assume or think Rorions' GJJ is no longer authentic or 'pure' because he's in it for the $$$? Which clan or philosophy do you guys currently take up?

    FYI: I've never grappled before, I only kickbox atm. But I would love to learn a few basic moves for fun.
     
  5. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    It's more or less all the same stuff. What you learn from Rickson isn't going to be radically different from what you learn from, say, Ralph.

    If you want to train "GJJ" (which is explicitly not for sport, very old school and basic, and includes self defense) the only place I could recommend is either the Gracie Academy in Torrance, or one of the Valente brothers. They have "certified" a bunch of schools around the country but they're all crap as far as I'm concerned. You attend a seminar and get a certificate to teach? Gimme a break. The Gracie University online training crap is even worse. Avoid anything that's even remotely affiliated with it.

    Now, the Gracie Academy level of instruction is very high. Rorion's sons are all very skilled. But I don't know of any high level students they have produced. So the quality is there, but he's also in it for the money imo. But it's perfectly authentic.

    I train at a Renzo affiliate. My instructor is a first degree black belt under Renzo. We don't train by sport rules (so if a technique is banned in competition, we still train it if it's effective), and we cover self defense tactics. But that's more of my instructor's own personal background mixed in. If you go to a school like Gracie Barra or Alliance, you can expect to be training purely a sportive style. Again, that's not saying it's all that different from what you would learn elsewhere, and it still has more or less the same self defense applications (since sport competition is based on the same positional philosophy and submissions). Basically what I think you should do is shop around and find a place that has an atmosphere you like, a qualified instructor, and let them know your interests/goals before you sign up.
     
  6. Auspex

    Auspex Brown Belt

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    If you actually want any of it to work, you'll want to learn a lot more than a "few" moves. And when I say few moves, I assume you mean a few classes. Sure, it's better than zero classes, but not much.

    Grappling is tons of fun, great exercise, and teaches you very vital bits for self-defense, regardless of which system you choose.
     
  7. mrpopenfresh

    mrpopenfresh Red Belt

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    Plus they Gracie family has gotten so big your'e bound to have issues, they are pretty varied when it comes to temper, eprsonnality and looks/physical attributes.
     
  8. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    Wasn't Rorion also the one that sued his cousin Carley for a six-figure sum over the use of the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu logo that he trademarked?
     
  9. Vector_X

    Vector_X Brown Belt

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    Don't like that at all, it seems far too logical for Sherdog.
     
  10. laohu69

    laohu69 Blue Belt

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    This is what Relson places emphasis on too. He makes it a point when he comes to our school (3 or 4 times a year) to give seminars on the self defense aspect. You will not be able to earn a black belt from Relson unless you can utilize all of the self defense aspects.
    We get more sports oriented (actually MMA) aspects from some of his black belt students (Phil Cardella, etc.) when they come & give seminars (2 or 3 times a year).
    When we work on sports techniques it is understood during the class that they are just that- sports techniques for grappling comps.
     
  11. hustles

    hustles Green Belt

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    This isn't really true for Gracie Barra. Any official GB school should be teaching quite a bit of self-defense in the fundamentals portion of the curriculum. All new students are required to go through this until they get their third stripe on their white belt. Students are also encouraged to go back to the fundamentals classes from time to time to keep those skills sharp.

    That said, once you start training in the advanced classes the focus definitely shifts to more sport oriented training.
     
  12. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    Yeah GB standardized the curriculums and now after the warmup we always do one "self-defense" technique before drilling the "sport" techniques.

    Usually it's an unrealistic takedown or a standing headlock escape of some sort. Occasionally we even do a standing wristlock, lol. Gotta admit I'm not really a fan of the self-defense techniques, since they're only done with zero resistance. I always can't wait until we're done with them. I would hate training JJJ since it consists almost entirely of these techniques.
     
  13. nefti

    nefti Red Belt

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    basically is Rorion suing everybody. He sued Carley (i think) now he is suing Carlinhos.

    Redaxe,
    You are a blue belt, why are you in the fundamentals program?
     
  14. hustles

    hustles Green Belt

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    I dunno as far as i'm concerned there is enough variance of self-defense taught for dealing with untrained assailants. If your going to deal with someone who has training the sport side of BJJ is going to give you additional advantages. I wouldn't feel any safer with a black belt from Rorian vs a black belt from Carlos Jr if I was going to be mugged in a dark alley.
     
  15. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    Our school makes the advanced students do the self-defense techniques too. We just started doing the advanced program, and after doing the self-defense technique as one big group, then we split the white belts off so they can go do fundamental techniques while we do advanced techniques.
     
  16. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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  17. DonkeyKong

    DonkeyKong Frazier > Ali

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    x____________
     
  18. Mike Wilson Jr.

    Mike Wilson Jr. Amateur Fighter

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    Last edited: Oct 27, 2010
  19. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    GTR is a little gem.

    If everyone read it, there will be less BS thread on sherdog.
     
  20. Darth Shlong

    Darth Shlong District World Champion

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