No more closed guard for this guy

[The Colonel]

So recently my instructor told me he wants me to stop using closed guard and I completely agree. He barely uses it and is much more into the butterfly guard and half guard (and lately we've started working on x-guard, God its cool) but I've pretty much vowed to no longer use closed guard, for a while at least. Oh yeah, since its Summer we're strictly doing no-gi for a while.

Last night was the first night of not using it at all, and even though I could have re-guarded, I just moved to butterfly instead. My butterfly and half guard suck they don't get passed, but my sweeps from there suck. I know technically what to do I just need more practice doing them.

But here's my question: I noticed that my game really revolves around closed guard, especially my sweeps (sit up sweep is my #1 sweep, plus scissor as well) but what if I'm rolling with a guy and he just keeps trying to "back out" of my butterfly guard? His posture is up and back, and he won't even pummel with me, he just tries to push me down and back out of the butterfly guard? I couldn't ever really tie the guy up (like I said, he didn't even try to control me at all, he just wanted to back out and circle for the pass).

He never did pass, but I never swept him either. It just kind of ended in a stalemate. This was with a guy that I normally school, but now that I'm forcing myself to not use the closed guard, things are more difficult for me. Thanks for any advice you can give.

 

[easy tiger]

I've been working on using the butterfly guard collar and pant leg variation, and comboing it with the deep half guard. When he is close, I can switch to over/underhooks. When he starts to back away, I start working collar/pant leg. The nice thing about the collar/pant leg butterfly guard is that you can keep the collar choke a threat the whole time while also throwing both forward and backwards sweeps at them as well as taking the back.

 

[Mikey Triangles]

i'm closed guard only for a couple more weeks since I can't use my arms.

 

[lethalazn]

Get used to transitioning back and forth between butterfly guard to standing with one foot with other knee behind it on the ground and shooting motion

if you already have double underhooks and he tries to stand up while it's still clasped...stand up with him (and since ur base will be lower than his) just slam/trip him

if he's just trying to walk away...attack that butterfly hook behind his knee and that'll pull you towards him. with that hook attached behind his knee pulling yourself into him...from there you're in perfect distance to either shoot for a leg takedown of any kind, X-guard, ankle lock or kneebar

 

[Zankou]

You shoot the takedown if he leans back. With a collar grip or underhook, take the ankle pick or knee tap. If you don't have the collar or underhook, look to shoot the single/blast double. If he just runs around like a chicken without getting close to you, there's not much that can be done.

The other thing is that if he's trying to push you, you should be arm dragging him like a motherfucker. Armdrag or underhook, that's what you're looking for.

Basically the butterfly guard is EXACTLY like wrestling, except that your "go-to" move is the lateral drop, aka butterfly hook sweep.

 

[codemonkey76]

if someone is backing up out of butterfly, it's the perfect time to pop up to combat base and pass "their" guard. 2pts for sweep too.

EDIT:
Damnit zankou, you beat me to it. :icon_chee

 

[The Colonel]

He's not standing (I'm not really worried about that, I can sweep most guys who try to work standing passes) but instead is keeping a wide base on his knees, torso pretty upright, and just trying to back away. He won't tie up with me at all and anytime I try to sit up and work for underhooks or an overhook he just backs away on his knees and tries to push me back down-his hands are kinda on my collar bone, but keeping his elbows in (not flared out) and he just backs away, backs away, God its annoying.

 

[DaRuckus337]

I always consider closed guard as sort of the starting point for your bottom game. You use it to set or reset your bottom attacks, but shouldn't plan on holding it for too long because it isn't much of an attacking position and is really only there for you to compose yourself and get some grips (unless you get it nice and high, then it's dangerous of course). I would like to see refs start warning BOTH players when closed guard is held for too long and the top man doesn't make enough of an effort to pass. They are both at fault for the inactivity, punish them both (of course, I'm a top guy primarily with a mediocre guard, so I'm probably a bit biased).

 

[CyberPunk]

I know how you feel man. I just had knee surgery. Most of my closed guard shit was based around the rubber guard and until my right knee is 100%, I have to stop using it and focus on my butterfly and half guard.

 

[DaRuckus337]

Probably a blessing in disguise. Take it as an opportunity to learn something new that will come in handy one day in competition.

 

[Zankou]

He's not standing (I'm not really worried about that, I can sweep most guys who try to work standing passes) but instead is keeping a wide base on his knees, torso pretty upright, and just trying to back away. He won't tie up with me at all and anytime I try to sit up and work for underhooks or an overhook he just backs away on his knees and tries to push me back down-his hands are kinda on my collar bone, but keeping his elbows in (not flared out) and he just backs away, backs away, God its annoying.

In that situation, take a cross-collar grip and work the knee tap/collar drag combination. If he has an upright torso, he cannot stop the knee tap unless he pushes forward, in which case you collar drag explosively.

This is what you do if he keeps his elbows tight "t-rex" style and keeps his body away from you.

You can also just pop up and shoot the double against him.

 

[easy tiger]

In that situation, take a cross-collar grip and work the knee tap/collar drag combination. If he has an upright torso, he cannot stop the knee tap unless he pushes forward, in which case you collar drag explosively.

This is what you do if he keeps his elbows tight "t-rex" style and keeps his body away from you.

You can also just pop up and shoot the double against him.

This is exactly what I was saying.

With the cross collar/knee tap grips, you can hit the knee tap going forward. If he pushes back, you have an overhead sweep and a collar drag. Any time he drops his hands, you have a cross collar choke. If he blocks the overhead sweep by posting his hands, you can slide out to the back. If he blocks by jumping to his feet, you can keep the cross collar grip and hit a sweep with both of your shins on his leg and going forward. Any time he tries to block the overhead sweep, you can go back to the knee tap. Rinse and repeat.

Oh, and any time he tries to simply spear you, he gives you a nasty loop choke to get him with.

 

[The Colonel]

This is all no gi, so I can't do any cross collar grips, but I think you're on to something with a knee tap, but how would I do that no gi from a butterfly guard?

 

[jasond]

I'm kind of the exact opposite right now. I just started to work my closed guard game again lately after spending the past 6 months of working nothing but butterfly, half guard, and basic open guard (feet on hips or one foot on hip with the other hooking behind the knee).

 

[MokeGrappler]

So recently my instructor told me he wants me to stop using closed guard and I completely agree. He barely uses it and is much more into the butterfly guard and half guard (and lately we've started working on x-guard, God its cool) but I've pretty much vowed to no longer use closed guard, for a while at least. Oh yeah, since its Summer we're strictly doing no-gi for a while.

Last night was the first night of not using it at all, and even though I could have re-guarded, I just moved to butterfly instead. My butterfly and half guard suck they don't get passed, but my sweeps from there suck. I know technically what to do I just need more practice doing them.

But here's my question: I noticed that my game really revolves around closed guard, especially my sweeps (sit up sweep is my #1 sweep, plus scissor as well) but what if I'm rolling with a guy and he just keeps trying to "back out" of my butterfly guard? His posture is up and back, and he won't even pummel with me, he just tries to push me down and back out of the butterfly guard? I couldn't ever really tie the guy up (like I said, he didn't even try to control me at all, he just wanted to back out and circle for the pass).

He never did pass, but I never swept him either. It just kind of ended in a stalemate. This was with a guy that I normally school, but now that I'm forcing myself to not use the closed guard, things are more difficult for me. Thanks for any advice you can give.

If he keeps backing out of your guard and not doing anything thats considered stalling in most tournaments, no?

 

[easy tiger]

This is all no gi, so I can't do any cross collar grips, but I think you're on to something with a knee tap, but how would I do that no gi from a butterfly guard?

Well, say you have butterfly hooks in. Try to pull him into you. Once he postures up and leans back, come up. By that I mean, leave one of your hooks in, pull your other leg in (foot to your butt) and come forward. Pop your hips out and he should go over. You can often go straight into the mount if you use your head as pressure on his sternum (gaining double underhooks as you go) or just go right into a knee-slide pass. Both work great.

 

[Zankou]

This is exactly what I was saying.

With the cross collar/knee tap grips, you can hit the knee tap going forward. If he pushes back, you have an overhead sweep and a collar drag. Any time he drops his hands, you have a cross collar choke. If he blocks the overhead sweep by posting his hands, you can slide out to the back. If he blocks by jumping to his feet, you can keep the cross collar grip and hit a sweep with both of your shins on his leg and going forward. Any time he tries to block the overhead sweep, you can go back to the knee tap. Rinse and repeat.

Oh, and any time he tries to simply spear you, he gives you a nasty loop choke to get him with.

Word. That's great advice.

 

[Meegle818]

if someone is backing up out of butterfly, it's the perfect time to pop up to combat base and pass "their" guard. 2pts for sweep too.

EDIT:
Damnit zankou, you beat me to it. :icon_chee

thats what i was thinking also.....and that sankou beat you hehe

 

[iwin]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/EJmnohIQkiU&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/EJmnohIQkiU&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

[krait]

Well, say you have butterfly hooks in. Try to pull him into you. Once he postures up and leans back, come up. By that I mean, leave one of your hooks in, pull your other leg in (foot to your butt) and come forward. Pop your hips out and he should go over. You can often go straight into the mount if you use your head as pressure on his sternum (gaining double underhooks as you go) or just go right into a knee-slide pass. Both work great.

This works really well. One of my instructors is real fond of buttrfly and whenever I get frustrated with him and start backing out a lot he'll pull this exact move on me and I'll be mounted in a flash.

The only defense I know for it is to push back into him but thats when he follows up with a hook sweep. Its demoralizing as the guy getting sweept because now your stuck with not wanting to engage or retreat.