Opinion No, comic books didn't 'become' left wing, they always have been.

[Anewt]

Courts where you are judged by a jury of peers is an inherently liberal concept.

Being judged by your peers has been around since ancient Greece and the Song and Ming dynasties in China. Far far before the concept of " liberalism ".

 

[Rational Poster]

Being judged by your peers has been around since ancient Greece and the Song and Ming dynasties in China. Far far before the concept of " liberalism ".

Uhh..

All three of those societies are specifically credited as the birthplace of liberal philosophy that predates the more modern concepts of liberal philosophy and political liberalism.

 

[Denter]

Uhh..

All three of those societies are specifically credited as the birthplace of liberal philosophy that predates the more modern concepts of liberal philosophy and political liberalism.

RP is correct on this, however, if ancient sources are to be believed, going on trial before an Athenian jury of 500 was a terrifying experience and not very conducive to justice.

 

[KnightTemplar]

The Punisher strikes me as a very right wing sort of hero, probably the most obvious example of one. Batman as well but Batman's no kill code makes him seem like a bleeding heart next to The Punisher.

Only superficially: The Punisher doesn't really have a political point of view. He sees everything in black and white. If you're not a violent criminal, he doesn't really care about your politics, race or sexuality. He's certainly no fan of the Alt Right. In one story, set after Captain America had, "died", Frank sees a news report about a neo-Nazi dressed in a warped version of Cap's costume who was killing immigrants trying to cross the border from Mexico.

Frank, "I'm stealing a car. I'm driving to Texas. And then I'm shooting this guy in the face".

 

[Anewt]

Uhh..

All three of those societies are specifically credited as the birthplace of liberal philosophy that predates the more modern concepts of liberal philosophy and political liberalism.

I think modern " liberalism " is a far different concept nowadays . But yes you are correct

 

[Anewt]

RP is correct on this, however, if ancient sources are to be believed, going on trial before an Athenian jury of 500 was a terrifying experience and not very conducive to justice.

Indeed, I don't particularly think it was used as ethical fair " liberalism "

 

[Islam Imamate]

I wonder why all vigilante movies/heroes get portrayed as right wing. Deathwish and Dirty Harry always come up in conversation about right wing movies as well.

I admit that I am not familiar enough with The Punisher to articulate why he's necessarily a right wing character, really its just that I noticed that a certain kind of right wing man likes vigilante characters like the Punisher. Seems to scratch a certain itch for them

I don't know if you can put a label on revenge movies. I think its just too primal to be politicized.

Generally, though, the right supports hierarchy- hopefully, a good hierarchy- and it's kind of a point in vigilante comics/ movies that the system, the hierarchy, does not work. If it did, the Punisher wouldn't exist.

A good example of a right wing movie where the hero is lawless would be Robin Hood- who steals, violates the law, and so forth, but in the end, King Richard returns from the Crusade and retakes his throne from the usurper, returning the hierarchy to its proper place. Presumably, Robin Hood is not ambushing King Richard's tax collectors after that.

In movies like Batman, its much less clear if the system is redeemable or not.

One way to look at it is that the setting of characters like Batman and the Punisher are ones where the system is corrupted and ends up upholding a bad hierarchy and the vigilante steps in to right that.

Only superficially: The Punisher doesn't really have a political point of view. He sees everything in black and white. If you're not a violent criminal, he doesn't really care about your politics, race or sexuality. He's certainly no fan of the Alt Right. In one story, set after Captain America had, "died", Frank sees a news report about a neo-Nazi dressed in a warped version of Cap's costume who was killing immigrants trying to cross the border from Mexico.

Frank, "I'm stealing a car. I'm driving to Texas. And then I'm shooting this guy in the face".

I guess what I am saying is that while the character doesn't necessarily mouth talking points of either the right or left, the character and premise itself are indicative of a right wing worldview. Though again I am not super familiar with the character so this is not a hill I'm going to die on.

 

[hillelslovak87]

Go ahead, demonstrate the power of your high IQs and explain how someone of right-wing American philosophy (as I detailed in my previous post) can be a 'fascist dicator' according to this definition.

"Fascism is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries."

Take your time.

You included the definition yourself. There's a reason nobody intelligent views fascism as being a left wing ideology.

Maybe that would clue you into the fact that fascists always have three primary targets: immigrants, the media and the left.

 

[KnightTemplar]

I admit that I am not familiar enough with The Punisher to articulate why he's necessarily a right wing character, really its just that I noticed that a certain kind of right wing man likes vigilante characters like the Punisher. Seems to scratch a certain itch for them

One way to look at it is that the setting of characters like Batman and the Punisher are ones where the system is corrupted and ends up upholding a bad hierarchy and the vigilante steps in to right that.

I guess what I am saying is that while the character doesn't necessarily mouth talking points of either the right or left, the character and premise itself are indicative of a right wing worldview. Though again I am not super familiar with the character so this is not a hill I'm going to die on.

Judge Dredd is the only comic book hero I would classify as right wing, since Dredd is a leading member of a oppressive, fascistic system. Albeit one that genuinely has the best interests of it's citizens at heart.

And when it comes to killing criminals, Dredd makes the Punisher look like a blushing virgin

 

[jeremyemilio]

Spiderman is a young working class kid from queens, there is very little chance he's a republican.

Oh, no doubt.

I'm looking at it more as a question of the thrust of the storylines and iconography and mythos than what party a given character might vote for were they real.

Looking at another example in The Punisher, there's little doubt Frank Castle would vote Republican. But I've seen the storylines sometimes reflect a left wing ethos, often by painting The Punisher and his MO as the dangerous actions of a deranged extremist.

The Spiderman titles don't take it that far, but there have been some more conservative leaning storylines.

For instance, if we turn the Punisher example around, sometimes Spiderman's unwillingness to use force beyond what is needed to stop the current threat has pretty tragic results. In particular, the early appearances of The Punisher in the Spiderman titles tiptoe along this line, somewhat, offering a countering perspective.

 

[maq22]

You included the definition yourself. There's a reason nobody intelligent views fascism as being a left wing ideology.

Maybe that would clue you into the fact that fascists always have three primary targets: immigrants, the media and the left.

The communist meanwhile just target their own people. Thats better i guess?

 

[maq22]

Judge Dredd is the only comic book hero I would classify as right wing, since Dredd is a leading member of a oppressive, fascistic system. Albeit one that genuinely has the best interests of it's citizens at heart.

And when it comes to killing criminals, Dredd makes the Punisher look like a blushing virgin

Right Wing = literally member of gestapo.

Gotcha.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Judge Dredd is the only comic book hero I would classify as right wing, since Dredd is a leading member of a oppressive, fascistic system. Albeit one that genuinely has the best interests of it's citizens at heart.

And when it comes to killing criminals, Dredd makes the Punisher look like a blushing virgin

But doesn't the Judge Dredd series portray that world as dystopian? So even though the character is right wing, the actual intellectual property as a whole is a critique of that type of right wing worldview. Or is it played unironically?

 

[KnightTemplar]

But doesn't the Judge Dredd series portray that world as dystopian? So even though the character is right wing, the actual intellectual property as a whole is a critique of that type of right wing worldview. Or is it played unironically?

Good point. The character and series was originally conceived as a satire of violent, border line fascist cops like Dirty Harry. However, a lot of the readers took Dredd at face(no pun intended)value.

Dredd himself has developed over the years into a complex, multi-faceted character. While he still believes the Judge System is the only thing that stands between Mega City One citizens and complete anarchy(and he's been proven right many times)he's no longer blind to it's flaws. And will even bend the rules in exceptional circumstances.

 

[hillelslovak87]

The communist meanwhile just target their own people. Thats better i guess?

Lol, what?

Pro tip - In fascist countries, those immigrants, media members and left leaning people? They're the part of the citizenry. Thus, the fascists are attacking their own people.

 

[maq22]

Lol, what?

Pro tip - In fascist countries, those immigrants, media members and left leaning people? They're the part of the citizenry. Thus, the fascists are attacking their own people.

Pro tip - communists don't care whats your occupation, religion or political views. In communism if you are not a member of very tight elite then you suffer like everyone else and you're basically a slave.

But hey. True equality right? Left wingers wet dream.

 

[hillelslovak87]

Pro tip - communists don't care whats your occupation, religion or political views. In communism if you are not a member of very tight elite then you suffer like everyone else and you're basically a slave.

But hey. True equality right? Left wingers wet dream.

I would say communists care very much about your occupation, machines always need cogs.

I would say communist dictators and despots care very much about your political or religious views.

I would say this is the exact same case when it comes to fascists, so I don't see why you thought you were making some salient point.

 

[maq22]

I would say communists care very much about your occupation, machines always need cogs.

I would say communist dictators and despots care very much about your political or religious views.

I would say this is the exact same case when it comes to fascists, so I don't see why you thought you were making some salient point.

It's completely different.

In communists regimes there is no way to accumulate wealth even if you are a loyal and fanatic communist with a science degree. Fascism lets you at least build some capital if you poses desirable skills and make hierarchical and social advancements.

Both are evil and totalitarian, but communism is far more terrible for its own citizens.

 

[hillelslovak87]

It's completely different.

In communists regimes there is no way to accumulate wealth even if you are a loyal and fanatic communist with a science degree. Fascism lets you at least build some capital if you poses desirable skills and make hierarchical and social advancements.

Both are evil and totalitarian, but communism is far more terrible for its own citizens.

"In communists regimes there is no way to accumulate wealth even if you are a loyal and fanatic communist with a science degree."

Yeah, that's not true. It's a matter of aligning yourself in with the party line. Same as fascism in practice.

It's always weird hearing the "We sided with the wrong side" argument coming from someone I assume is an American.

Shows where a lot of you are coming from..........

 

[maq22]

"In communists regimes there is no way to accumulate wealth even if you are a loyal and fanatic communist with a science degree."

Yeah, that's not true. It's a matter of aligning yourself in with the party line. Same as fascism in practice.

It's always weird hearing the "We sided with the wrong side" argument coming from someone I assume is an American.

Shows where a lot of you are coming from..........

Nope.

I'm European from former Soviet block living in UK. I have plenty of experience how communism works in reality.