NFL Discussion: Down go the Patriots

[Da Speeit]

Never doubted Fant for a second.

Same, he's a national treasure

 

[iwhoopedbatman]

QBs last longer then any other position and it's not really close (tackles next?). Phillip Rivers and Big Ben are 37, Brees is 40, Aaron Rodgers is already 35, matt Ryan is 34, matt Stafford 31.

Ryan sucks now, Big Rape is IR'd and hasn't been himself in years, Rodgers didn't start until several years into his NFL career so he doesn't have the damage most QBs his age have (also runs a lot), Stafford has never done anything but put up empty stats and Brees is just an unnatural freak. Of course QB's CAN last a while, but it's pretty damn rare to play the position well for over a decade.

 

[DrDune]

Never doubted Fant for a second.

Lol, hopefully he breaks more 75 yard TD's because he's been a bust all year with turrible hands.

 

[Dizzy]

Lol, hopefully he breaks more 75 yard TD's because he's been a bust all year with turrible hands.

According to this logic, Emmanuel Sanders is a bust as well.

 

[Gregolian]

Where do you get 10-12 years from? There is literally nothing to back that up. There are teams that have been through nearly a dozen QBs in the past decade. You don't just get to point to the couple handfuls of QBs that last that long and say, that's the norm. It's absolutely not. Plenty of young QBs with great potential get destroyed in the pocket. Happens every year.

And btw, most of the top QBs in the league right now are still very young or fairly young, like Mahomes, Lamar, Watson, Russell, etc.. It's hardly an old man's position. The older QBs like Ryan, Rivers, Big Rape, are all on their way out or look like dogshit. A ten year run as an excellent QB is genuinely pretty rare in the NFL.

Also 10-12 years is still less than McNabb played.

And who are those teams with like 12 QBs in a decade? The Browns and the Dolphins? Two perennially BAD teams?

Let's do a rundown shall we:
Eli Manning: 2004-2018
Tom Brady: 2001 to now
Aaron Rodgers: 2008 to now
Philip Rivers: 2006 to now
Matt Stafford: 2009 to now
Joe Flacco: 2008-end of last season in Balt
Big Rape: 2004 to now barring injury seasons
Tony Romo: 2006-2015
Drew Brees: 2006 til now for the Saints

 

[DrDune]

According to this logic, Emmanuel Sanders is a bust as well.

You know Fant, aside from that 75 yard TD (which was sweet don't get me wrong), has been a bust. He might turn it around, but there isn't a Broncos fan in the world who was happy with him before that single play yesterday, based on his season performance to that point.

The best thing he's done all year is expose Jermaine Whitehead and it isn't even close.

 

[Dizzy]

You know Fant, aside from that 75 yard TD (which was sweet don't get me wrong), has been a bust. He might turn it around, but there isn't a Broncos fan in the world who was happy with him before that single play yesterday, based on his season performance to that point.

The best thing he's done all season is expose Jermaine Whitehead and it isn't even close.

I’m also sure that you’re aware TE’s generally take several years before they fully develop. Tony Gonzales couldn’t catch a fucking ball to save his life early in his career. How’d that turn out?

I was being facetious in my post. I’ve been incredibly critical of drafting him that high. But his potential is there and you’d have to be an idiot not to see it. He’s outperforming every other rookie TE in an incredibly inept offense.

 

[iwhoopedbatman]

And who are those teams with like 12 QBs in a decade? The Browns and the Dolphins? Two perennially BAD teams?

Let's do a rundown shall we:
Eli Manning: 2004-2018
Tom Brady: 2001 to now
Aaron Rodgers: 2008 to now
Philip Rivers: 2006 to now
Matt Stafford: 2009 to now
Joe Flacco: 2008-end of last season in Balt
Big Rape: 2004 to now barring injury seasons
Tony Romo: 2006-2015
Drew Brees: 2006 til now for the Saints

That's 9 teams out of 32 that have been set at QB for a long time
Eli should have been replaced 5 years ago
Brady is holding on because of the team around him, but was outstanding for 15 years, so yes that one is legit
Rodgers runs a lot and still playing really well (though aided by the fact he didn't start until he was in his 4th year).
Rivers needs to be replaced around the same number of years in as Vick, Cam, McNabb
Stafford, lol
Flacco is basically done and the offense in Baltimore was shit his last few years (still much love for FlacGOAT for that SB run though, but he's been a shell of himself since he got hurt, in the pocket)
Big Rape is done and hasn't been good for a few years.
Romo didn't last a decade.
Brees is like Brady.

Even if you give credit for all of these guys, they are not the norm (only a quarter of the league's QBs are on this list) and half of them are beaten to shit after a single decade without running the ball a lot.

 

[Gregolian]

That's 9 teams out of 32 that have been set at QB for a long time
Eli should have been replaced 5 years ago
Brady is holding on because of the team around him, but was outstanding for 15 years, so yes that one is legit
Rodgers runs a lot and still playing really well (though aided by the fact he didn't start until he was in his 4th year).
Rivers needs to be replaced around the same number of years in as Vick, Cam, McNabb
Stafford, lol
Flacco is basically done and the offense in Baltimore was shit his last few years (still much love for FlacGOAT for that SB run though, but he's been a shell of himself since he got hurt, in the pocket)
Big Rape is done and hasn't been good for a few years.
Romo didn't last a decade.
Brees is like Brady.

Even if you give credit for all of these guys, they are not the norm (only a quarter of the league's QBs are on this list) and half of them are beaten to shit after a single decade without running the ball a lot.

All the starting years is the first year they started, Rodgers being an example 2008 was his first year as a started, he was drafted in 2005. And why laugh at Stafford? He's been the starter since he got drafted.

And those were JUST the guys that have played for a single team (or the main team in Brees case). You wanna talk guys that have bounced around but have maintained, for the most part, starting status you can then start throwing dudes like Alex Smith into that discussion.

This idea that QB is the position with the shortest shelf life is a joke when you have the runningback position where most teams don't want to reisgn that position after their rooking contracts are done.

 

[NewbZor]

Ryan sucks now, Big Rape is IR'd and hasn't been himself in years, Rodgers didn't start until several years into his NFL career so he doesn't have the damage most QBs his age have (also runs a lot), Stafford has never done anything but put up empty stats and Brees is just an unnatural freak. Of course QB's CAN last a while, but it's pretty damn rare to play the position well for over a decade.

Most of those guys are still top 10 in the league, or near it. If you are playing like a top 25 qb you will have a job in the league. Matt Leinart isn't out of football because his body broke down, it's because he sucks. Most QBs leave the league because they don't have the talent // Andrew Luck is the exception not the rule.

Seriously this is a silly argument - teams use 2-3 RBs every week and there are like 3 in the NFL over 32 (not started as a defacto starter) . A quarter of the NFL in the league are 32+, how do you keep saying they have the shortest shelf life? It's not even an argument, it's easy to pull data and see you are wrong here.

 

[iwhoopedbatman]

I'm just tired of hearing the mantra that running QBs don't last without any actual proof. Where are all the great running QBs that got cut down in their prime? Just because Brees and Brady are still playing doesn't mean pocket QBs don't get destroyed and broken all the time.

It's shit conventional wisdom based off minimal evidence.

 

[DrDune]

I’m also sure that you’re aware TE’s generally take several years before they fully develop. Tony Gonzales couldn’t catch a fucking ball to save his life early in his career. How’d that turn out?

I was being facetious in my post. I’ve been incredibly critical of drafting him that high. But his potential is there and you’d have to be an idiot not to see it. He’s outperforming every other rookie TE in an incredibly inept offense.

I argued none of that. I simply said, up to the Whitehead exposing TD, he has been a bust and has had brutal drops (14% drop rate). This has nothing to do with developing, nothing to do with Tony Gonzales, and nothing to do with him relative to other rookie TE's.

 

[NewbZor]

I'm not of the argument that running QBs won't last - I think most guys get hit/hurt more in the pocket then runs outside it. Wentz/Cam both broke down outside the pocket though

 

[Dizzy]

I argued none of that. I simply said, up to the Whitehead exposing TD, he has been a bust and has had brutal drops (14% drop rate). This has nothing to do with developing, nothing to do with Tony Gonzales, and nothing to do with him relative to other rookie TE's.

Calling a player in a position that takes time to develop a bust after half a season is dumb as shit, especially when he’s leading all rookies in his position lol. Hence me bringing up those other points.

Either that or you don’t understand what a bust is.

Anyway, that catch and run was sick. Have fun when your TE relapses.

 

[iwhoopedbatman]

Most of those guys are still top 10 in the league, or near it. If you are playing like a top 25 qb you will have a job in the league. Matt Leinart isn't out of football because his body broke down, it's because he sucks. Most QBs leave the league because they don't have the talent // Andrew Luck is the exception not the rule.

Seriously this is a silly argument - teams use 2-3 RBs every week and there are like 3 in the NFL over 32 (not started as a defacto starter) . A quarter of the NFL in the league are 32+, how do you keep saying they have the shortest shelf life? It's not even an argument, it's easy to pull data and see you are wrong here.

I have never once said they have the shortest shelf life. I said they have generally short shelf lives in general, because this is football and injuries happen everywhere. The average QB lasts 4.4 years. Yes that's longer than several other positions, but it's not long.

As for that list, 2 of those guys are on IR. Ryan is a piece of joke and Stafford has always put up meaningless garbage time stats and failed when it mattered. Rivers only slightly better. They are not mostly top-10 QBs, at least not this year.

 

[Gregolian]

I'm just tired of hearing the mantra that running QBs don't last without any actual proof. Where are all the great running QBs that got cut down in their prime? Just because Brees and Brady are still playing doesn't mean pocket QBs don't get destroyed and broken all the time.

It's shit conventional wisdom based off minimal evidence.

It puts you at greater risk though.

Rodgers collarbones was while out of the pocket

Mahomes dislocated kneecap was on a running play

Rustled Wilson got his ankle stepped on last year running

RGIII

 

[DrDune]

Calling a player in a position that takes time to develop a bust after half a season is dumb as shit, especially when he’s leading all rookies in his position lol. Hence me bringing up those other points.

Either that or you don’t understand what a bust is.

Anyway, that catch and run was sick.

What a bizarre hill to die on.

Calling him a bust so far this season is not the same as calling him a bust for good. I have the exact criticism for Clelin Ferrell who has been a bust in the first 8 games, relative to where he was drafted.

Have fun when your TE relapses.

Lol

 

[iwhoopedbatman]

All the starting years is the first year they started, Rodgers being an example 2008 was his first year as a started, he was drafted in 2005. And why laugh at Stafford? He's been the starter since he got drafted.

And those were JUST the guys that have played for a single team (or the main team in Brees case). You wanna talk guys that have bounced around but have maintained, for the most part, starting status you can then start throwing dudes like Alex Smith into that discussion.

This idea that QB is the position with the shortest shelf life is a joke when you have the runningback position where most teams don't want to reisgn that position after their rooking contracts are done.

When did I say they had the shortest shelf life? Seriously, you and Newbzor make this claim. I have not said this once. I recognize QBs last longer than most positions, they still don't last that long. It's football. The fact that 9 guys (2 of which are on IR) held their job close to or over a decade doesn't mean it's common or even normal. Add Alex Smith if you want. Another IR'd (since last year) older QB who missed whole seasons in his prime due to injuries he sustained throwing from the pocket.

My only point is that there is no actual proof that running QBs have lesser or shortened careers. We just haven't seen one do a Favre/Brady/Peyton/Brees and play into their 40's yet. Though Cunningham came close.

 

[Gregolian]

I have never once said they have the shortest shelf life.

When did I say they had the shortest shelf life? Seriously, you and Newbzor make this claim. I have not said this once. I recognize QBs last longer than most positions

You said they have a short shelf life which is pretty veritably false:

What history exactly? QBs in general have a short shelf life.

They don't have a short shelf life from injury. They have a short shelf life cause so many suck dick coming out of college and teams like the Browns go through 20 in a 6 year period.

 

[iwhoopedbatman]

It puts you at greater risk though.

Rodgers collarbones was while out of the pocket

Mahomes dislocated kneecap was on a running play

Rustled Wilson got his ankle stepped on last year running

RGIII

Rape and Flacco had their seasons ended in the pocket this season. Brady missed a whole season in his prime getting his knee blown out in the pocket. Peyton a year because of his neck, sustained in the pocket. It's football. People get hurt.