International Next month USA will have a new longest war

[IGIT]

Really dont think our goal is to win. That was the case with Vietnam and what Ellsberg revealed when he leaked what would become known as the Pentagon Papers.

It's just a cash machine for those there and it keeps other powers from coming in. Plus the heroin.

hello Trident,

could you clarify? what would a reasonable expectation of winning look like, in Afghanistan?

- IGIT

 

[IGIT]

There has to be an end point tho.

hello MMA_enthusiast,

we may be coming up on it.

just a few weeks ago, President Trump (over the objections from his Cabinet) indicated that he'd be halving US ground forces in Afghanistan.

- IGIT

 

[Madmick]

American involvement in The war in Afghanistan will pass the Vietnam war by next month. It is heading to be 18 years by October. It’s actually insane that the war has lasted this long. When it started I was only a child heading into kindergarten and now I am fully grown adult with a useless degree but stable job

What’s even more insane is that the war has no means to an end. The taliban are apparently stronger than ever and contest more land than ever before. The afghan government without American aid have admitted they could only last 6 months against the taliban. What do you guys make of this. Do you think the war will end in the next 5 years or is Afghanistan forever doomed as the graveyard of empires. If it does end do you think a new super power will look to take over ie China. The British, Russia and lets be honest America have all failed. America and Russia have wasted so much money on the stability of this country. Will the taliban win (honestly seems like they might) and if so can they co-exist as a government party that will lead to Afghanistan’s prosperity with its neighbours of Pakistan, China (small border) and Iran.

Discuss

I think it's time we stop pretending that cultures aren't inferior, and that barbaric radical fundamentalism is a "tiny minority", when a government itself admits that they would get destroyed in a conventional war against a terrorist organization.

It's time for Islam to end. If we in the West could all realize its poverty of values, peacefully, uniquely mutually exclusive to secular humanism where all the other major religions haven't failed this great litmus test of progression among our species, then I think we could all find a much more coherent and cohesive strategy to undertake these problems effectively.

I'm all for protecting minorities, but in 1/3 of the world they aren't minorities, and these places are all rife with problems; chief among them the treatment of minorities, ironically. Yet roughly half the West gets caught up in kowtowing to this culture because it is a minority among us, and many even parrot language suggesting that the best solution to this problem is equalizing them in pursuit of this multicultural Frankenstein built upon a foundational logic of checks & balances. That would be a disaster. The best thing we can do is shrink them there, as peacefully as possible, not grow them here.

The idea of a perfectly balanced culture of identities is a tremendous fallacy-- a mirage. Majorities are inherent to diversity. If they disappear you no longer have diversity-- you no longer have freedom. How does this basic philosophical truth elude people? Some imbalance-- including majorities-- are unavoidable. They are not evil. They are not morally stunted.

Islam is. Understanding all of this is the great test of our time as history will judge us; unless, of course, we fail it, and allow the barbarians to win.

 

[trident]

hello Trident,

could you clarify? what would a reasonable expectation of winning look like, in Afghanistan?

- IGIT

Depends who you are talking about. Any business invested in this war is making money, that's a sort of winning.

But as far as the national objective there, it's a fantasy, imo. It doesnt look like anything.

Striking the Taliban after 911 made sense and I don't recall there being any real national resistance to that.

I dont know what the objective is any more. Do we really think we are going ro roll them all into our fold? The region is too atomized for any cohesive unity. And there are plenty of places in the world for the Taliban, post-Taliban forces to go.

My sense is the current goal is just keeping the rest of the world out, so maybe we are winning?

 

[MMA_enthusiast]

.
My sense is the current goal is just keeping the rest of the world out, so maybe we are winning?

To me that is the true goal only problem is the countries are now setting up rail lines, oil lines and mining projects while the US gets nothing. It’s why I think it’s weird when people say they are doing it for opium and military contracts. Afghanistan potential for trade and mining is a much bigger business that they don’t have a pie in compared to war economies and opium. So basically the US is really failing in any regard and they need to change the approach

 

[trident]

To me that is the true goal only problem is the countries are now setting up rail lines, oil lines and mining projects while the US gets nothing. It’s why I think it’s weird when people say they are doing it for opium and military contracts. Afghanistan potential for trade and mining is a much bigger business that they don’t have a pie in compared to war economies and opium. So basically the US is really failing in any regard and they need to change the approach

I've heard the rumors that Afghanistan is loaded with valuable minerals and that's why we are there. Maybe. I have to believe there is some unrevealed goal that is being achieved or its just shear greed. The story we are getting doesnt add up.

 

[Ice That Jaw]

Amazing 2001 feels like just 9 years ago.

Do you have recolections of 9/11?

I was 18 and a half years old. But I dont feel I matured a lot since then.

10th grade. Skipped school that day with a friend and we were in my parents kitchen, feeling good, with the tv on when it happened. If I went to school that day I wouldn't have a memory of it. As for maturing, neither do I.

 

[superpunch]

I've heard the rumors that Afghanistan is loaded with valuable minerals and that's why we are there. Maybe. I have to believe there is some unrevealed goal that is being achieved or its just shear greed. The story we are getting doesnt add up.

We elect in a new president every 4 years and a new Congress every 2 years. Of course our foreign policy seem jumbled up and incoherent -- it changes every 2-4 years but policy commitments last longer than that. We're still engaged in things that were decided 20 years ago while the policy makers changed every 2 years after it started. Imagine changing your life's goals every 2 years; "oh -- i just spent $100K on a finance major.. but now I want to be an architect! 2 years and another degree later.. oh now I want to be an artist!" Your life would be an incoherent mess full of wasted money. That's why "the story doesn't add up." It's not a conspiracy, it's just democracy.

Compare that to China which has a cohesive and coherent foreign policy spanning back decades and planned decades into the future. This is, I think, a major flaw of democracy.

 

[trident]

We elect in a new president every 4 years and a new Congress every 2 years. Of course our foreign policy seem jumbled up and incoherent -- it changes every 2-4 years but commitments last longer than that. We're still engaged in things that were decided 20 years ago while the policy makers changed every 2 years after it started. That's why "the story doesn't add up." It's not a conspiracy, it's just democracy.

Compare that to China which has a cohesive and coherent foreign policy spanning back decades and planned decades into the future. This is, I think, a major flaw of democracy.

Eh, I wouldn't chalk it all up to that.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

American involvement in The war in Afghanistan will pass the Vietnam war by next month. It is heading to be 18 years by October. It’s actually insane that the war has lasted this long. When it started I was only a child heading into kindergarten and now I am fully grown adult with a useless degree but stable job

What’s even more insane is that the war has no means to an end. The taliban are apparently stronger than ever and contest more land than ever before. The afghan government without American aid have admitted they could only last 6 months against the taliban. What do you guys make of this. Do you think the war will end in the next 5 years or is Afghanistan forever doomed as the graveyard of empires. If it does end do you think a new super power will look to take over ie China. The British, Russia and lets be honest America have all failed. America and Russia have wasted so much money on the stability of this country. Will the taliban win (honestly seems like they might) and if so can they co-exist as a government party that will lead to Afghanistan’s prosperity with its neighbours of Pakistan, China (small border) and Iran.

Discuss

Shoulda just bombed the shit out of the terrorist bases/training camps and been done with it.

 

[superpunch]

Eh, I wouldn't chalk it all up to that.

The original goal was that peak oil was happening and so whoever had control of the world's oil supplies would dominate the 21st century. Then we got new policy makers.. but we were still in the Middle East.. but now with no goals, just commitments with no purpose. I know you want there to be some grand reason for it to make sense. But there's no conspiracy. Just incompetence.

 

[trident]

The original goal was that peak oil was happening and so whoever had control of the world's oil supplies would dominate the 21st century. Then we got new policy makers.. but we were still in Afghanistan.. so what do we do now... no goals.. I know you want there to be some grand reason for it to make sense. But there's no conspiracy. Just incompetence.

Its corruption not incompetence

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

I can't remember who said it, but essentially under communism people had money, but nothing to buy. Under capitalism, there is more goods produced than people can afford to consume.

The gap is made up in war. Lobbing pointless bombs in a pointless war is the Military Industrial Complex's one step up from grocery stores throwing good food in the garbage in mass quantity (apparently we trash one third of all food that is produced).

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

Its corruption not incompetence

Damn right.

 

[IGIT]

Yet roughly half the West gets caught up in kowtowing to this culture because it is a minority among us, and many even parrot language suggesting that the best solution to this problem is equalizing them in pursuit of this multicultural Frankenstein built upon a foundational logic of checks & balances. That would be a disaster. The best thing we can do is shrink them there, as peacefully as possible, not grow them here.

hello there superpunch,

the west kowtows, as you put it, because there is oil there - which for the last half century, is something that everyone wants and needs.

the kowtowing is not because of an indifference to some of their more unusual cultural mores...its because any concerns of that nature have been eclipsed by our own industrial needs.

if you want to defang them, well...sooooo much of their money comes in via an international thirst for fossil fuels, and would seem that the last thing the Saudis (or Russians or Canadians or Nigerians, for that matter) want to see are various nations switching to sources of renewable energy.

- IGIT

 

[MMA_enthusiast]

hello there superpunch,

the west kowtows, as you put it, because there is oil there - which for the last half century, is something that everyone wants and needs.

the kowtowing is not because of an indifference to some of their more unusual cultural mores...its because any concerns of that nature have been eclipsed by our own industrial needs.

if you want to defang them, well...sooooo much of their money comes in via an international thirst for fossil fuels, and would seem that the last thing the Saudis (or Russians or Canadians or Nigerians, for that matter) want to see are various nations switching to sources of renewable energy.

- IGIT

Afghanistan doesn’t have oil, it has the next source of energy for batteries, lithium, a scary amount that any country would want to go to war over

 

[IGIT]

Afghanistan doesn’t have oil, it has the next source of energy for batteries, lithium, a scary amount that any country would want to go to war over

hello MMA_enthusiast,

when GWB went into Afghanistan, it was looking for payback. it wasn't over lithium.

when Mr. Obama continued the war in Afghanistan, it was a learning process that eventually morphed from "destroy the Taliban" into "contain and degrade the Taliban". again, there was no thrust on plundering Afghanistan's resources.

and Mr. Trump? at the moment, he seems to be inclined to bring US troops home.

if we were ever after the mining rights, that ship has sailed. the Chinese have been all over it since 2007.

- IGIT

 

[MMA_enthusiast]

hello MMA_enthusiast,

when GWB went into Afghanistan, it was looking for payback. it wasn't over lithium.

when Mr. Obama continued the war in Afghanistan, it was a learning process that eventually morphed from "destroy the Taliban" into "contain and degrade the Taliban". again, there was no thrust on plundering Afghanistan's resources.

and Mr. Trump? at the moment, he seems to be inclined to bring US troops home.

if we were ever after the mining rights, that ship has sailed. the Chinese have been all over it since 2007.

- IGIT

Disagree the ship has never sailed. The US themselves are the ones who discovered the mining potential in the USGS report in 2007.

http://gppreview.com/2018/02/07/motivations-unearthed-re-contextualizing-war-afghanistan/

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/world/asia/afghanistan-trump-mineral-deposits.html

Also China is interested in copper and since the 2008 deal has not yet even started extracting so they are not over it at all
https://www.chinadialogue.net/artic...Afghanistan-s-giant-copper-deposit-languishes

 

[Grenz]

If anybody's interested and hasn't seen it, Vice did a very good documentary on what the reality on the ground in Afghanistan is actually like:



Highlights include US Marines trying to teach Afghans why eating with the same hand they wipe their ass with is a bad idea, trying to get local tribesman to ease off on fucking underage boys, and many scenes of slapstick-esque shenanigans involving the Afghan "army" (there's a part where they're faced with the intense conundrum of how to remove a Taliban flag from the top of a tree. First suggestion? Let's bazooka the tree).

It appears that a significant part of that particular population can't and doesn't want to be helped. The Taliban will take over again once the allies withdraw, whether that's tomorrow or in 10 years.

Afghanistan also isn't the problem. It's unimportant. Look at the people in this documentary, if you think they're competent enough to organize international terror attacks, you're a fool. The enemy was in clear sight immediately post 9/11. But instead of bringing the Saudis to their knees, the US went for Iraq and Afghanistan. IMO, the wars that were started post 9/11 (and the war that wasn't started) remain the biggest blunders on the international scene post WW2. What's perhaps worst, is that it was clear what was actually happening, who was really the target, and yet everything proceeded as per Cheney's and Rumsfeld's plans. The fact that these two haven't been brought to justice is mind boggling.

 

[MMA_enthusiast]

If anybody's interested and hasn't seen it, Vice did a very good documentary on what the reality on the ground in Afghanistan is actually like:



Highlights include US Marines trying to teach Afghans why eating with the same hand they wipe their ass with is a bad idea, trying to get local tribesman to ease off on fucking underage boys, and many scenes of slapstick-esque shenanigans involving the Afghan "army" (there's a part where they're faced with the intense conundrum of how to remove a Taliban flag from the top of a tree. First suggestion? Let's bazooka the tree).

It appears that a significant part of that particular population can't and doesn't want to be helped. The Taliban will take over again once the allies withdraw, whether that's tomorrow or in 10 years.

Afghanistan also isn't the problem. It's unimportant. Look at the people in this documentary, if you think they're competent enough to organize international terror attacks, you're a fool. The enemy was in clear sight immediately post 9/11. But instead of bringing the Saudis to their knees, the US went for Iraq and Afghanistan. IMO, the wars that were started post 9/11 (and the war that wasn't started) remain the biggest blunders on the international scene post WW2. What's perhaps worst, is that it was clear what was actually happening, who was really the target, and yet everything proceeded as per Cheney's and Rumsfeld's plans. The fact that these two haven't been brought to justice is mind boggling.

There is virtually zero education for these locals, the rich in Afghanistan send their children to schools in India for education. They also coked up on heroin so bad they add it to their coffee. They are fucked beyond imagination. They went through the Russian war, civil war, taliban rule and then this chaotic war of who is who. They had no chance in the past 40 years to showcase any merit unfortunately. Also taliban has never showed any physical threat to attacking another country. They are nationalists (9/11 was done by saudis). They have a huge fuck you attitude to anyone not afghani even to their own neighbours.

America cannot leave, they need to change their approach. What that approach is I have no idea. But the truth is, the taliban are winning through means of attrition (I know America has money but at this point they might just see it as a lost cause)