Nevertap Tournament- Oct 1st- Newport, CA. CASH PRIZES$$$

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by bigmoz21, Sep 9, 2005.

  1. bigmoz21

    bigmoz21 White Belt

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    Check out the superfight line ups!!! There are 2 more superfights waiting to be finalized... some pretty big names too...


    Nevertap Grappling Prix
    $5,000 in Cash Prizes!
    October 1, 2005

    Ensign (Horace) Intermediate School
    2000 Cliff Dr, Newport Beach, CA 92663

    TIME: 11am-9pm
    Advanced-Intermediate: 11am-1pm
    Beginner: 1pm-4pm
    Professional: 4pm-8pm

    Doors open at 8am
    Weigh-ins start at 8am

    All competitors must check-in ONE HOUR PRIOR to Division start time


    Confirmed Professional Card

    Jay Heron Vs Antonio Mckee

    Jeff Glover Vs Brian Peterson

    Bill Cooper vs Steve Magdaleno

    Scott Bierri Vs David Jacobs

    Joe Camacho Vs Nam Phan


    Simson Go Vs TBA

    Sunny Nohara Vs Scottie Epstein

    ------------------------------


    Cash prizes will be awarded to all 1st and 2nd place winners

    If there are not enough participants in a division (intermediate or any one), they can be combined.

    Advanced
    1st Place-$100
    2nd Place-$50

    Intermediate
    1st Place-$100
    2nd Place-$50

    Beginner
    1st Place- $100
    2nd Place- $50
    There are several weight divisions in each skill level up to 145 featherweight

    146-155 lightweight
    156-170 welterweight
    171-185 middleweight
    186-205 light-heavyweight
    206-235 heavyweight
    236 and over superheavyweight


    Rules & Prizes

    All matches will be judged according to our criteria. The philosophy of our judging system is to encourage the competitors to finish the match. We believe this creates the most exciting match for the fans and rewards the competitor for their effort and technical prowess.

    Our criteria is as follows

    Effective Aggressiveness:
    Competitors who are setting the tempo, seeking dominant position on the ground, and working to finish the match will score here. Near submissions as well as multiple attempts will score in this category.

    Takedown and Defense:
    A skillfully executed takedown or repeatedly stopping your opponent's takedown will score in this category. Multiple takedowns, even if not skillfully executed, will also be scored. Pulling Guard will not count.

    Ground Control:
    Ground control is awarded by achieving and taking advantage of dominant positions. Dominant positions are side control, mount, back mount with hooks, knee ride, and north-south. The guard will be considered a neutral position. Competitors are encouraged to strive for dominant position throughout the match.


    Yellow Cards: Negative Points

    When competing as outlined by the criteria there is no need for interference from referees or judges. However, when a competitor does not adhere to the criteria, he may receive a yellow card penalty, which may result in the loss of the round. If both opponents receive yellow cards, penalties offset.

    When Standing

    The competitors will be encouraged to engage and attempt takedowns. Competitors who don
     
  2. bigmoz21

    bigmoz21 White Belt

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  3. David_Jacobs

    David_Jacobs TheRockBJJ.com

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    I'm looking forward to this. Scott Bierri is a very tough competitor.

    Thanks to the Nevertap, Inc, guys for the invitation.
     
  4. bigmoz21

    bigmoz21 White Belt

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    Dave and Scott's fight is sure to be awesome!! Cant wait, myself
     
  5. Green Whale

    Green Whale Green Belt

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    I must root for Sim Go and Sonny Nohara of Cobrai Kai!!! Quickly becoming two of the best purple belts in the country and they got a crapload of medals to back it up!

    www.greenwhaleproductions.com
     
  6. sir037

    sir037 Forever Noob

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    DAMN!

    Too bad I have to work, looks like some great matchups for the superfights.
     
  7. bigmoz21

    bigmoz21 White Belt

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    Superfights wont start till around 4, so you may be able to catch the main events after work.



    Hope you make it!!
     
  8. DBLang

    DBLang White Belt

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    What seperates beginner from Intermmediate? I got 3rd in beginner last time.
    Oh yeah, and how did you guys decide toe holds were cool for beginners but knee bars were a no no? I hope to show up, it was fun last time. The rules are cool.
     
  9. Stoic1

    Stoic1 Patriot Yellow Card

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    Sonny had his ankle broken at NAGA, I do not think you will see him fight.
     
  10. bigmoz21

    bigmoz21 White Belt

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    The reason toe holds are acceptable, and knee bars are not is due to the potential danger, and damage from each move. You have alot more time to tap out, and submit to a toe hold, as opposed to a knee bar. I have been caught in knee bars, where I beleived I could effectively get out, only to have my knee practically snapped because of a millisecond of a mistake. Toe Holds on the other hand, give each party much more time to effectively attempt to defend, and the potential damage is not as bad as a miniscus, or ACL tear, which can result from a knee bar. Granted all submission moves have some type of potential danger to the competitors, we simply don't want beginners attempting knee bars with their minimal time of experience in grappling.


    IMO, there is no benefit in risking the potential damage from a knee bar, in a beginners level tournament. But as you can see, the rules change as the experience moves up!
     
  11. bigmoz21

    bigmoz21 White Belt

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    ttt Just added



    Jason Mayhem Miller vs Givanildo Santana
     
  12. DBLang

    DBLang White Belt

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    Fair enough bigmoz21. It makes more sense to me to use those rules as well. A toehold definitely doesn't have the potential for injury a kneebar does.
     
  13. Stoic1

    Stoic1 Patriot Yellow Card

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    I'm sure I will be in the minority by disagreeing.

    But let me explain why I think that toe holds are just as dangerous if not more so than kneebars. First and foremost what are you doing with the foot when you apply the toehold? You are TWISTING it. That is how serious damage is done to the knee. I will admit that the foot/ankle usually goes first but there is no denying that the knee also takes quite a bit of rotational torque. You see where I am going here?

    Let me continue on that for a moment. The knee was not designed for rotational torque. It was meant to go front to back. You see where I am going here? And in that motion it has LARGE muscle groups which propel that action. Big quadraceps that extend the leg and big hamstrings that pull it back. There are no muscle groups that turn the knee.

    Think about it for a minute. There is no real muscle that can stop the knee from turning when force is applied, as in heel hooks and toe holds so the rotational force stops at the knee and something tears. Whereas with a kneebar you have muscles that can actually resist the extension. You have big hamstring muscles that can resist the force of the jointlock. I am not saying that this protects you from injury. I am saying that you can resist it to some degree and that will save you from serious injury. It will give you the time you need in order to make the correct decision on whether to submit or not. The joint is much like the elbow joint which we consider an acceptible target to attack. It is a hinge joint and it is MUCH weaker than the knee joint. Double standards here. And the EXACT same mechanics are used to attack with a straight armlock that we do to the kneebar. Pull with both hands, lift the hips, etc. The same force is applied and yet the kneebar is getting a worse rap than the toehold. I call bullshit.

    I am certainly not saying get rid of straight armlocks. I am simply pointing out the knee joint works just like the elbow AND it has muscle groups to oppose the extension. The knee joint does not have the musculature to resist rotational force like the kind applied by toe holds. What I am saying is that you should get rid of toeholds before you get rid of kneebars but IMHO both should be allowed at intermediate divisions and up.
     
  14. GJJNY

    GJJNY Purple Belt

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    3 and 2 minute rounds? That's terrible, anyone equally matched will not finish the other in that amount of time. They may get position, but unless the other guy GIVES a submission away it's going to the judges.
     
  15. DBLang

    DBLang White Belt

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    They dont let you stall at Nevertap tournaments. You're constantly attacking or defending or the ref starts yelling "ACTION" and shit like that at you. Its actually pretty fun. All my matches ended by submission at the last one, as did most of the others if i remember correctly.
     
  16. Jinzumkei

    Jinzumkei Rock El Columbian

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    does anyone have any info on admission prices and everything? didnt see it on the site.
     
  17. bigmoz21

    bigmoz21 White Belt

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    Sotic, I understand your points....But let me make a response. There are several differences between an armlock, and a kneebar. For one, you can grab your own hand, and lock your hands, to prevent the armbar, while you are maneuvirng to escape it. You can not do this with a knee bar. Of course, there are defenses to the knee bar as well, but my point is that once its sunk, the danger mostly lays upon the person performing the move. If the competitor does not crank the knee bar, and only looks for a submission, you can have a guy tap out, and move on with his day. Unfortunately, in the beginners division, you are going to have alot of guys who do not have a great amount of experience with the move (although they can definitely execute the move), so you have a higher chance that these beginners will crank the knee bar. And frankly, the cost/reward benefits of this move in a beginners division is very low.


    I can also point to NAGA's, and so many different tournaments I have been at. Unfortunately, someone was caught in a toe hold, and he refused to tap....but he was caught in the move for nearly 20 seconds before tapping. He subsequently greatly damaged his foot. Had he been caught in a knee bar (that was just as sunk as the toe hold), and refused to tap, he would have most likely never competed again. I agree with you that both a toe hold, and knee bar are dangerous, but the time that a competitor has to tap, or escape a toe hold, is much longer than there is for a knee bar.
     
  18. bigmoz21

    bigmoz21 White Belt

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    GJJNY, I understand your concern, but I can tell you that out of all of our matches, the majority have ended in submission. Over 50% of our superfights have ended in submission as well. I want to also make it known that we appreciate all of the competitors, and potential competitors voiced concerns. We will definitely adapt, and modify our rule system, and criteria to best suit future competitors needs. We are not going to simply stick by a set of rules till death.... if it's shown that we need to modify an aspect of our system, we will definitely make the move to do so!


    Thanks for your input!
     
  19. DBLang

    DBLang White Belt

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    Dont get me wrong
    . I love kneebars and toeholds and hope they are legal submissions when I compete. I just was curious about the unorthodox rules and why they were created.
     
  20. Stoic1

    Stoic1 Patriot Yellow Card

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    Wrong.

    Do you even grapple?

    One of the most basic defenses when a guy goes for a kneebars is to cross the untrapped leg over the leg in danger and figure four it. It is the exact equivalent to grabbing your own hand.

    I don't see why this would even matter. Because my point remains valid. The same mechanics with the exact same amount of force is used on the armbar that can be applied to the kneebar. The difference being the kneebard has larger muscles to defend it.

    Please please please try to rationalize that the bicep is somehow stronger than the hamstring. That would just be great. Because that is where you are at this point.

    Your point, I believe, is that beginners do not have enough experience with this move, and thus the likelyhood of injury is higher. I think this is what you are saying.

    I would direct you to any grappling tournament on the planet and watch the army of whitebelts who walk off the match clutching their elbow.

    Again it isn't the cost/reward issue. My original post was to dispute the fact that toeholds are less dangerous than kneebars. Which, I believe, I have proven to be false. It was not to compare armbars to kneebars. IMHO they are about equal in all aspects of the game. But you are correct in beginners do not have much experience with them. That sword cuts both ways since the likelyhood in applying a good kneebar is as reduced as the experience level defending against them.

    You are talking about Sonny at NAGA a couple of weeks ago. The rolling toehold from Reynaldo Duarte that left Sonny with a broken foot. He tapped. Eventually. And it broke his foot with the first roll.

    But you know what?

    He was back on the mat less than a week later with a brace on doing jiu jitsu. FACT.

    Now you have moved into the realm of SPECULATION. You are also comparing apples to orange in this speculation. The guy thought he could get out with rolling. He couldn't. It got his foot broken. It happens.

    But the kneebar is EXACTLY the same as the armbar in terms of mechanics, application, and a competitors refusal to tap out. You see guys get their elbows hyperextended all the time in competition. Amazingly enough they come back to compete again! Some have even gotten thier elbows so wrecked it required surgery. Same with shoulders from Kimura's and Americanas. They get surgery and come back. It happens when you REFUSE TO TAP OUT. Again you can't take one submission and then speculate on what might happen to one guy.

    I have yet to see a guy taken out of action permanently from a kneebar. I have however seen guys get taken out of action from twisting leg locks. Which is what a toehold can do.

    Wrong.

    And based on what? Sonny's example of having 20 seconds to tap out? Not likely. His foot was busted on the first roll. He just gutted it out for the remaining time the way champions often do after injury. The result was he got hurt real bad. That can happen on ANY submission.

    The reality of things are there is no real muscle group to oppose the toe hold. There are HUGE muscle groups to oppose the kneebar. The mechanics of the armlock and kneebar are the same yet one is legal and one illegal. The toe hold is rotational force and so is the heelhook. Both can damage the knee to a much higher degree than the kneebar. These are facts. Not opinions nor speculation.
     

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