Need your input: statistics on necessity of police

[nhbbear]

When faced with this question, my answer is a definite “yes.” While most of society can function without constant supervision, there are large portions that can not function because with no law to worry about, they would rob, kill, and steal whatever they wanted. Sure, some people would arm themselves, but there are so many that would not, that the risk is worth the reward to the criminal. Plus, THEY ALWAYS DICTATE WHEN THE VIOLENCE HAPPENS AND CITIZEN HAS TO REACT-it puts them at a disadvantage, same as cops today. The criminal knows when they will run, fight, or draw a gun. It’s like playing that slap the hands game when we were kids. You are waiting for the slap to come, and you get a little bit anxious and jumpy. Now multiply that 100.

As for community protection, some would hire security guards, some would protect their own, but in the really shitty areas, the gangs would rule and if you did defend yourself or a neighbor, they would kill you and yours. Another expectation I would have is the number of dickholes like George Zimmerman would pop up, so yeah, shit would break down seriously in some places, not so much in others.

But I would not want to live in a police free society, regardless of my current profession.

 

[freakroor]

I need police like i need a second hole in my ass.

 

[JonnyRingo84]

I am researching an interesting subject. Maybe you sherbros can help me out. I made a friendly bet with a good friend of mine about policing in the USA. I argued that without police in the usa, particularly in the disfunctional ghetos, it will become cheos. People will tear eachother apart with looting, violence and gangs will fill the void. Gun sales will go up exponentially, it will be survival of the fittest. (Even more than now). All powers go to gangs. Picture mad max. Lord of the flies. RoboCop. We will need to unleash those huge military robots with cannon arms to clean out the city. Without cops in my neighborhood let me tell you I'd bunker in and set up sniper positions.

My good friend is arguing no. Human nature is less dark then what I predict. He mentioned that Detroit didn't have enough money to pay its cops a few years ago, and it didn't turn into the killing fields. I am trying to find statistics. It seems vague and stats can always bolster the argument for both sides.

The argument here is for the usa only. Based on culture and history. Slavery, racism and rugged individualism. We tried to refrain from bringing in external cultures in our discussion like Yakuza, Rowanda, etc...

Do you agree with me that without cops its cheos, cops are a vital part of the judicial system and without them its like the wild west or with my friend who says no. Humans are inherently good. Violence and crime has gone down.

cheos?

we've seen this happen throughout history. what society always comes up with, regardless of culture, is called feudalism.

the strongest/most charismatic man will rise up and become a warlord from neighborhood to neighborhood. he then has underlings like gang footsoldiers/knights/samurai. order is kept in this way though, so the "cheos" would be limited once this pecking order was established.

 

[Deleted member 457759]

I'm not even going to dignify this question with a response.

 

[lfd0311]

Actually I'm talking about ALL criminals. Including the millions of people that work in the drug trade. If you think the police patrols deter them from doing their "work" then you are out of your mind.

Aaaaannndddd you would once again be talking about hardcore criminals who won't be deterred regardless of Police action. It's like you glossed right over that part.

I guess you think the cops parading around on social media with their 5lb drug busts are denting the drug trade and making others think twice about making the easiest money they'll ever make in their entire lives.

Impressive strawman argument, do you have anymore?

Let's get back to the units working traffic. Which have the highest presence on the street. They can't even deter regular people from speeding or parking illegally and you think police patrols make people think twice about doing things above that?

No, patrol units have the highest presence on the street. It's once again clear you don't actually know anything about policing.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

It would be like Russia in the 90s. Or even what happened in the 60s in the US. Afraid of being racist police stopped policing certain areas and crime reached third world levels, or as Nixon put it, the cities were enveloped in smoke and flame.
Crime started to decrease in the US after mass incarceration became the norm. Best represented by Clinton's Violent Crime act, although it started before it, the US got a lot less lenient with criminals and stopped wasting money on rehabilitation and focused on incapacitation.

How does he suggest a riot like in LA would be resolved without police and the military?

 

[MaxMMA]

Aaaaannndddd you would once again be talking about hardcore criminals who won't be deterred regardless of Police action. It's like you glossed right over that part.



Impressive strawman argument, do you have anymore?



No, patrol units have the highest presence on the street. It's once again clear you don't actually know anything about policing.

Drug dealers are hardcore criminals? Lofl

The amount of busts that police successful carry out barely dents the profit margins of the drug industry. That is a known fact.

It doesn't matter how many units are assigned which tasks. The police to civilian ratio is so insignificant that getting busted red handed by a patrol car is highly unlikely.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vo...7/3/1/14777612/trump-crime-certainty-severity

Fewer than half of violent crime and only a 3rd of property crime is reported to the police. Of the crime that is reported less than half of violent crime reports lead to a prosecution and only 1/5 of reported property crimes lead to a prosecution. Notice they didn't even mention the amount of crime that direct police intervention leads to prosecution. Hmm wonder why?

 

[lfd0311]

Drug dealers are hardcore criminals? Lofl

Uh... do you know how much of the nation's violent crime statistics are directly linked to the drug trade? Was this supposed to be an obtuse post?

The amount of busts that police successful carry out barely dents the profit margins of the drug industry. That is a known fact.

Again, you're arguing a point based off of something that nobody, not even the Police are arguing against. You're trying to have the most selective argument possible, despite what sort of replies you get. It's an amazingly dishonest way of having a discussion.

It doesn't matter how many units are assigned which tasks. The police to civilian ratio is so insignificant that getting busted red handed by a patrol car is highly unlikely.

So just ignore how wrong you were about all that other stuff you said. Got it. Shocked that I knew this is where this conversation was going.

 

[MaxMMA]

Uh... do you know how much of the nation's violent crime statistics are directly linked to the drug trade? Was this supposed to be an obtuse post?



Again, you're arguing a point based off of something that nobody, not even the Police are arguing against. You're trying to have the most selective argument possible, despite what sort of replies you get. It's an amazingly dishonest way of having a discussion.



So just ignore how wrong you were about all that other stuff you said. Got it. Shocked that I knew this is where this conversation was going.

You are arguing with me like I'm saying the police shouldn't exists, far from it.

Huge difference between someone who makes a living selling drugs and someone who is willing to kill another person for stepping on their illecit livelyhood.

I'm trying to prove a point. That random police patrols and raids do jack all to deter criminal activity. I bring up the drug busts because in this example, months sometimes even years of specific and concentrated police work yield little result, yet you still think random cops in random places deter crime.

I'll admit I don't know how police duties on the street are broken down by the numbers, it honestly doesn't matter to me because as I've pointed out in two different roles(traffic and narcotics) police presence is highly ineffective.

Once again you've left out pieces of my posts.

 

[Iceberg Slim]

I'm going to go against the grain here. I lived in Panama in the late 80s and at the time I got there, the only form of police they had was the PDF and they were the military and not really police in the way we think of it. After about 6 months, the US invaded and the PDF was no longer. For the next year there was literally no police force. I don't know how it would go in the USA, but I can tell you that the time I spent in Panama was incredible. It was not anarchy at all. It made me realize that civilization existed and worked prior to the creation of a police force. I also think it's important to remember that police very rarely prevent crime. They clean up the mess and arrest the law breakers but they don't prevent crime very often.

 

[EradiatedHaggis]

You're not even replying to my entire posts.

Even if speed traps are illegal the cops in the other states will still fill the same purpose except they will just hang out on the road in plain view instead of in hiding.

Everyone only response to PARTS of posts when multiple points are made, its called refuting what you think needs refuting instead of making a long drawn out post saying you agree to this, that, the other thing, the other other thing...but I disgree with this. YOU DO IT ALSO!

Lastly, No, they do not. You know nothing about police if you actually believe they do nothing other than sit and wait for speeders. Not even inbred rednecks in tiny towns are that naive so you clearly have a have biased agenda.

 

[Alphaboy]

As they stand now... Violent, omnipotent, trigger happy brutes... we could do without. The ideal version of police, professionals who protect and serve but don't abuse their power, yeah, those are vital to our society.

With that said, every society has formed systems of protection, even if it wasn't an official police force. That was the original intended purpose of gangs like bloods and crips. If I'm not mistaken, that's how Samurai got started too.

So the idea that we'd be in a chaotic post-apocalyptic world with everyone raping and killing everyone else is false.

 

[MaxMMA]

Everyone only response to PARTS of posts when multiple points are made, its called refuting what you think needs refuting instead of making a long drawn out post saying you agree to this, that, the other thing, the other other thing...but I disgree with this. YOU DO IT ALSO!

Lastly, No, they do not. You know nothing about police if you actually believe they do nothing other than sit and wait for speeders. Not even inbred rednecks in tiny towns are that naive so you clearly have a have biased agenda.

You're behind the power curve, the article I posted shows that police are largely ineffective as it pertains to a prosecution when they do respond to reported crime. I could find zero statistics on the effectiveness of police actually catching criminals redhanded commiting criminal acts. I'm assuming because it rarely happens.

I've also noted in cases where the police have sustained concentrated efforts in narcotics the results insignificantly impact the illegal sale and distribution of narcotics.

So the police are really only effective(if you can call it that) when they respond to crime, and even when they carry out concentrated police work they are ineffective.

Yet you believe randomly patrolling neighborhoods and harrassing citizens with with traffic citations is somehow increasing their effectiveness?

 

[CauseImbetta]

Good input from many of you. Many good points on both sides. The stronger the social programs, higher education, higher income and socioeconomic status the less police are needed. Hence statistics for police presence and murder rate for both high and low socioeconomic status areas is needed.

One cop dies per week in the USA. And I am sure it's not in the high socioeconomic status areas.

So I assume I am right for low socioeconomic status areas and my friend is right for high socioeconomic status areas. I am starting to believe it's a moot argument.

 

[Bamboozled]

Jobs and education opportunities do more to stem violence and crime than policing.

That's why there was a low police presence in where I grew up. Everyone had something to do, all the kids went to school, and the police were usually involved in stuff that was alcohol related, and properly swept under the rug.

I bet you also had a police force that patrolled accordingly.

 

[IDL]

Removing the police would essentially create a power vacuum which would create opportunities for other organizations to step in. Probably quite violent in the beginning and then organized crime would duke it out for control. Over time I suppose a new power balance could form.

And of course there would be a lot of individual crime in the mean time and vigilante justice would be a response to that, and citizen policing groups would probably form too to try to protect neighborhoods.

You'd need a pretty cohesive and strong culture to remain organized and avoid violence, especially after prolonged periods of time relying on a police force and laws. You remove the police and you remove the laws essentially.

A place already prone to crime is going to fair far worse than a low crime area.

 

[Lord Commander Palis]

Police do very little to prevent crime. In all actuality they usually just respond to crime. There really is no reason why they couldn't just sit at the PD and respond to calls the way the FD does.

Lmao at the idiots who liked your post. Super low IQ stuff.

@7437 @no fat chicks @The Sole Survivor

 

[The Sole Survivor]

Lmao at the idiots who liked your post. Super low IQ stuff.

@7437 @no fat chicks @The Sole Survivor

Here we have a wild troll, trolling in its natural habitat.

 

[no fat chicks]

Lmao at the idiots who liked your post. Super low IQ stuff.

@7437 @no fat chicks @The Sole Survivor

thanks for the callout dork. Next time provide a reasoned response

 

[Lord Commander Palis]

thanks for the callout dork. Next time provide a reasoned response

I think the low IQ remark was sufficient enough. Unfortunately for you, because of your low intelligence (condition?) it went way over your head.

Here we have a wild troll, trolling in its natural habitat.

Why'd you change your original post? Didn't think I'd see? I see all.