Strength/Mass My abs aren't getting any stronger. What am I doing wrong?

[Banana&Coffee]

I don't mean strong in the sense of working out. I can do leg raises on a dip station and am on track to do them on an actual pull-up bar. I'm making good progress towards L-sits as well. I can even do a core circuit without rests that takes about 10 minutes to complete. But my abs aren't exactly reaching that 'rock hard' status everyone always talks about. Whenever I do impact conditioning drills with a partner at our karate dojo, trading body shots, their abs will tend to feel solid with not much give, whereas mine will feel firm but a bit squishier.

Our sensei told us that during a fight or when we're doing slower drills, such as medicine ball drops to the body – basically when it's a power shot and not rapid fire – we should exhale and tense up. But he said that when it is rapid fire, like when we're trading punches, we should keep our core tight without exhaling, as that would just make us lightheaded.

So what we do is exhale, tense up, and then release just some of that tension so that we're not completely holding in our breath and can breathe a little bit, and that seems to work for all the other students; their abs are still rock solid. But as for me, I'm actually getting winded by some of these shots. And I'm talking lower- to middle-abs, not up in the solar plexus or off to the liver.

I'm starting to suspect that maybe I'm just not getting enough protein? We all have a relatively low BF%, and no one seems visibly more defined than me, but am I just not building my muscles enough? Going by the 0.8-1.6 grams of protein per kg of bodyweight rule, I'm definitely eating more around 0.8 than 1.6. Should I bump that up?

I honestly have no idea what I'm doing wrong. Please help.

 

[godhatesacoward]

They are such a bodyfat influenced muscle group it's not even funny man

 

[Trabaho]

Abs show when you are 12% bf. Always working them more works. Genetics are a factor. Abs being visible is bodybuilding teritory. And yes protein is needed to build.

 

[Banana&Coffee]

They are such a bodyfat influenced muscle group it's not even funny man

Sorry, could you elaborate, please?

Abs show when you are 12% bf. Always working them more works. Genetics are a factor. Abs being visible is bodybuilding teritory. And yes protein is needed to build.

So I should basically just stick to my core routine and eat more protein, then. And will that help me to handle those body shots better?

 

[Trabaho]

Sorry, could you elaborate, please?


So I should basically just stick to my core routine and eat more protein, then. And will that help me to handle those body shots better?

What is your body fat % ?

Without low body fat abs are not visible

 

[1rawdog]

I'm starting to suspect that maybe I'm just not getting enough protein? We all have a relatively low BF%, and no one seems visibly more defined than me, but am I just not building my muscles enough? Going by the 0.8-1.6 grams of protein per kg of bodyweight rule, I'm definitely eating more around 0.8 than 1.6. Should I bump that up?

I honestly have no idea what I'm doing wrong. Please help.

IDK where you got that "rule" from but I think you may have gotten it wrong. Sounds a lot more like what gets recommended often which can range around the neighborhood of say 1-1.8 grams per POUND.
Regardless and regardless of this belly issue IMO you are eating WAY too little protein for any human let alone someone who is active and even more so for someone trying to build muscle. If there is no known starting point I get guys to start at 1.5g/lb of lean mass that's probably more than 3 times what you are getting. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, I'm in a very distracting situation atm.

 

[wufabufa]

Is this another Baby Hanma alt thread?

 

[DEVILsSON]

Your abs are weaker than you think. My fatass at 230lb and nearly 20% bf can do L-sits for 10-20 sec on parallettes/dip bars. If you say you can't do them yet while being lighter than me then that should probably tell you something.

You likely have significantly higher bodyfat than you think. I have decently visible 6 pack and I'm probably pushing 20%(though probably a bit less).

So keep plugging away. Rome wasn't built in a day. It may take years to do what you want.

Build volume on hanging leg raises or at least on the dip station.

Work on leg lifts (these are great and easy to do) and compression strength. Keep working on L-sits. Add rotational exercises(twists, chops, pass throughs, etc).

On leg raises the upper half of the ROM between parallel with the ground and bar is what emphasizes the abs. The lower half of the ROM with legs perpendicular to the ground and up to parallel works mostly the hip flexors so keep that in mind when you're doing them on a dip station.

Do decline sit ups. Add weight.

Whatever you think is enough volume, add more.

 

[Fahcough]

Not sure if you're looking for visible beach abs or a rock solid core, can do one without the other or both. If you want a core to support resistance and some steel cable obliques it may take some time.

Can do Hollow holds, hollow rocks, plank variations until you're miserable, side planks, the L-sits work well - mix em up from bars to rings - being under or on top the rings , hold an L-sit while rope climbing, GHD situps with greater range of motion to stretch abs (decline) , front squats , Kettlebell 360 arounds torso, weighted side oblique leans . Mace swings. Bulgarian bag swings . Sandbag floor rolls pulling bag cross body. Overhead cable hold doing oblique leans. If you have access to tall parallel bars, full body swings into pike.

If you're not worried about getting a lil snickers thicker in the mid section you can get under some heavy weight.
Overhead bar/ kettlebell / sandbag holds & marches , With KBs you can do single or double OH walks. Loaded carries, suitcase carries or just holding heavy weight, be a sandbag over bodyweight, yoke walk, walk outs like a squat but stationary hold the bar not squatting it. Single arm DB deadlifts

Getting long winded, will shut it down but probably can think of a handful more moves that require body to resist collapsing.

 

[Trabaho]

I'm definitely eating more around 0.8 than 1.6. Should I bump that up?

So if you weigh 80 kg you are eating around 100 g of protein currenlty ?

 

[Banana&Coffee]

So if you weigh 80 kg you are eating around 100 g of protein currenlty ?

Actually, around 70 kg. So at 0.8 per kg, that's roughly 56 grams of protein that I eat a day.

IDK where you got that "rule" from but I think you may have gotten it wrong. Sounds a lot more like what gets recommended often which can range around the neighborhood of say 1-1.8 grams per POUND.
Regardless and regardless of this belly issue IMO you are eating WAY too little protein for any human let alone someone who is active and even more so for someone trying to build muscle. If there is no known starting point I get guys to start at 1.5g/lb of lean mass that's probably more than 3 times what you are getting. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, I'm in a very distracting situation atm.

Respectfully (and I do mean that), I've done a lot of reading on this, and it seems like the consensus is that it's kg not pound. If it were pounds, then at 0.8 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight, I'd need 123 grams, which seems huge to me. At 1.5 grams that would be 231 grams of protein, and I'm not rich, haha.

 

[Banana&Coffee]

Your abs are weaker than you think. My fatass at 230lb and nearly 20% bf can do L-sits for 10-20 sec on parallettes/dip bars. If you say you can't do them yet while being lighter than me then that should probably tell you something.

You likely have significantly higher bodyfat than you think. I have decently visible 6 pack and I'm probably pushing 20%(though probably a bit less).

So keep plugging away. Rome wasn't built in a day. It may take years to do what you want.

Build volume on hanging leg raises or at least on the dip station.

Work on leg lifts (these are great and easy to do) and compression strength. Keep working on L-sits. Add rotational exercises(twists, chops, pass throughs, etc).

On leg raises the upper half of the ROM between parallel with the ground and bar is what emphasizes the abs. The lower half of the ROM with legs perpendicular to the ground and up to parallel works mostly the hip flexors so keep that in mind when you're doing them on a dip station.

Do decline sit ups. Add weight.

Whatever you think is enough volume, add more.

I very much appreciate this response, thank you. I really needed to hear all that and will continue to work on my core strength. I'm a bit disheartened to hear about the ROM thing regarding leg raises, but like I said, I'll get onto a pull up bar eventually.

Thanks for the vids, too

 

[Banana&Coffee]

Not sure if you're looking for visible beach abs or a rock solid core, can do one without the other or both. If you want a core to support resistance and some steel cable obliques it may take some time.

Can do Hollow holds, hollow rocks, plank variations until you're miserable, side planks, the L-sits work well - mix em up from bars to rings - being under or on top the rings , hold an L-sit while rope climbing, GHD situps with greater range of motion to stretch abs (decline) , front squats , Kettlebell 360 arounds torso, weighted side oblique leans . Mace swings. Bulgarian bag swings . Sandbag floor rolls pulling bag cross body. Overhead cable hold doing oblique leans. If you have access to tall parallel bars, full body swings into pike.

If you're not worried about getting a lil snickers thicker in the mid section you can get under some heavy weight.
Overhead bar/ kettlebell / sandbag holds & marches , With KBs you can do single or double OH walks. Loaded carries, suitcase carries or just holding heavy weight, be a sandbag over bodyweight, yoke walk, walk outs like a squat but stationary hold the bar not squatting it. Single arm DB deadlifts

Getting long winded, will shut it down but probably can think of a handful more moves that require body to resist collapsing.

Thanks, I appreciate the detailed response. I have been doing loaded carries, and I also like to ruck, though I haven't been doing them as much lately, so I'll have to get back to them. Thanks for the reminder. Also, the main thing for me is getting a rock solid core; I really want to be able to take body shots better. But having visible abs would be great, too.

 

[DEVILsSON]

Actually, around 70 kg. So at 0.8 per kg, that's roughly 56 grams of protein that I eat a day.



Respectfully (and I do mean that), I've done a lot of reading on this, and it seems like the consensus is that it's kg not pound. If it were pounds, then at 0.8 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight, I'd need 123 grams, which seems huge to me. At 1.5 grams that would be 231 grams of protein, and I'm not rich, haha.

56g daily protein is very little.

I am 100kg and I eat double or triple that most days. My protein bars have 20-30 g each and I eat several per day.

If you're on a budget (which I completely understand) look into cheaper sources of protein. Chicken breast packs are less than 10$ where I live(and it's one of the most expensive places in the US). A typical 6oz chicken breast is 54 g of protein. That's your daily intake right there already... You need to eat two or three of those. Most packs I buy have 4-6 pieces so that's 5-8$ per day.

Eggs are amazing if they are not too expensive in your area.

Look into canned tuna. Sometimes you can score really good deals.

Canned chicken is also worth a look.

You can search for various protein powders.

Milk and yogurt are excellent choices. Milk has been the go-to for hard gainers for decades. Yogurt is excellent for gut health.

Cheese/cottage cheese are excellent sources.

You can also mix sources like potatoes, rice, beans, lentils, etc.

There's a budget store in my city Grocery Outlet where I buy protein bars which are much cheaper than elsewhere. Maybe there's something like that in your city.

 

[Trabaho]

Actually, around 70 kg. So at 0.8 per kg, that's roughly 56 grams of protein that I eat a day.

Yeah 56 is enough for a 70g person to be healthy. To build more muscle 110-140 would be good. You gotta include the protein from everything not just animal sources. Carbs like pasta or rice also have 10-12% protein.

I don't calculate my protein but I'm likey at 150-230 daily. Probably 190 at average. Hard to say I don't calculate but I drink whey and eat animal sources daily.

 

[1rawdog]

Actually, around 70 kg. So at 0.8 per kg, that's roughly 56 grams of protein that I eat a day.



Respectfully (and I do mean that), I've done a lot of reading on this, and it seems like the consensus is that it's kg not pound. If it were pounds, then at 0.8 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight, I'd need 123 grams, which seems huge to me. At 1.5 grams that would be 231 grams of protein, and I'm not rich, haha.

I appreciate "respectfully", thank you. I reciprocate the thought but very strongly disagree with that amount. I believe that 0.8g/kg is the USRDA but that jut basically mean it is the minimum for a sedentary person to avoid deficiency, enough to satisfy basic physiological needs. You are an athlete with a problem that sounds like it could be improved upon by gains some strength and muscle right? Different ballgame sir.

I suspect whatever you are reading has misled you. I will admit that my experience has definitely biased me towards the very higher end but there are reasons for that. I have seen it work over and over for decades. 1.5g/lb is extreme for sure, the real number to satisfy strength and hypertrophy demands of a hard training man is surely closer to 1g/lb but I believe it works so well not just because of the needs for repair, synthesis, recuperation etc are met but also because of a thing known as "protein leveraging". I don't know how to prove it personally, only how I've seen it work but I'll leave it to you to look into it if you are interested. Also of note for gaining muscle is the importance of meeting Leucine minimums.

Just a suggestion but IMO some of the most credible sources for this type of info would be the ISSN and Layne Norton. Both provide expertise based on real science that applies to athletes with concerns like yours.
Here is a position statement that reflects my thought quite well.

International Society of Sports Nutrition Position Stand: protein and exercise - PubMed

The International Society of Sports Nutrition (ISSN) provides an objective and critical review related to the intake of protein for healthy, exercising individuals. Based on the current available literature, the position of the Society is as follows:An acute exercise stimulus, particularly...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

i hope you carefully read the other replies, they seem mostly on track even if not as strong a position as I take.

Of course "you do you" but you did open with a post asking for help and saying that you suspect you are not eating enough protein and you had no idea what you are doing so...

Best Regards and good luck

 

[Banana&Coffee]

56g daily protein is very little.

I am 100kg and I eat double or triple that most days. My protein bars have 20-30 g each and I eat several per day.

If you're on a budget (which I completely understand) look into cheaper sources of protein. Chicken breast packs are less than 10$ where I live(and it's one of the most expensive places in the US). A typical 6oz chicken breast is 54 g of protein. That's your daily intake right there already... You need to eat two or three of those. Most packs I buy have 4-6 pieces so that's 5-8$ per day.

Eggs are amazing if they are not too expensive in your area.

Look into canned tuna. Sometimes you can score really good deals.

Canned chicken is also worth a look.

You can search for various protein powders.

Milk and yogurt are excellent choices. Milk has been the go-to for hard gainers for decades. Yogurt is excellent for gut health.

Cheese/cottage cheese are excellent sources.

You can also mix sources like potatoes, rice, beans, lentils, etc.

There's a budget store in my city Grocery Outlet where I buy protein bars which are much cheaper than elsewhere. Maybe there's something like that in your city.

Oh wow, thank you! That's a huge help. And yeah, going by 0.8 to even as high as 1.8 grams per kg, that's 126 grams of protein, so that makes sense. And even higher than that seems more doable given this list.

Yeah 56 is enough for a 70g person to be healthy. To build more muscle 110-140 would be good. You gotta include the protein from everything not just animal sources. Carbs like pasta or rice also have 10-12% protein.

I don't calculate my protein but I'm likey at 150-230 daily. Probably 190 at average. Hard to say I don't calculate but I drink whey and eat animal sources daily.

Thank you. I do count that as well, but I hear protein from carbs isn't as good quality, so I'm never sure how much it actually helps to build muscle. But I'll keep counting them.

Oh wow. Well yeah, then 56 seems miniscule. lol.

 

[Banana&Coffee]

I appreciate "respectfully", thank you. I reciprocate the thought but very strongly disagree with that amount. I believe that 0.8g/kg is the USRDA but that jut basically mean it is the minimum for a sedentary person to avoid deficiency, enough to satisfy basic physiological needs. You are an athlete with a problem that sounds like it could be improved upon by gains some strength and muscle right? Different ballgame sir.

I suspect whatever you are reading has misled you. I will admit that my experience has definitely biased me towards the very higher end but there are reasons for that. I have seen it work over and over for decades. 1.5g/lb is extreme for sure, the real number to satisfy strength and hypertrophy demands of a hard training man is surely closer to 1g/lb but I believe it works so well not just because of the needs for repair, synthesis, recuperation etc are met but also because of a thing known as "protein leveraging". I don't know how to prove it personally, only how I've seen it work but I'll leave it to you to look into it if you are interested. Also of note for gaining muscle is the importance of meeting Leucine minimums.

Just a suggestion but IMO some of the most credible sources for this type of info would be the ISSN and Layne Norton. Both provide expertise based on real science that applies to athletes with concerns like yours.
Here is a position statement that reflects my thought quite well.

International Society of Sports Nutrition Position Stand: protein and exercise - PubMed

The International Society of Sports Nutrition (ISSN) provides an objective and critical review related to the intake of protein for healthy, exercising individuals. Based on the current available literature, the position of the Society is as follows:An acute exercise stimulus, particularly...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

i hope you carefully read the other replies, they seem mostly on track even if not as strong a position as I take.

Of course "you do you" but you did open with a post asking for help and saying that you suspect you are not eating enough protein and you had no idea what you are doing so...

Best Regards and good luck

Hi, apologies for not getting back to you. When I submitted my last reply, yours popped up when my page refreshed, but time got away from me. I'm still looking through the link you sent me, but I appreciate your reasoning. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to also experiment. I can try bumping up my protein intake to different amounts and checking in with myself to see how it all plays out in my body.

What should I be focused on when it comes to carbs and fats, by the way? And why is leucine specifically so important? One final thing (for now): thanks for mentioning protein leveraging, I had never heard of that before. It's fascinating to read about as well

 

[godhatesacoward]

Your abs are weaker than you think. My fatass at 230lb and nearly 20% bf can do L-sits for 10-20 sec on parallettes/dip bars. If you say you can't do them yet while being lighter than me then that should probably tell you something.

You likely have significantly higher bodyfat than you think. I have decently visible 6 pack and I'm probably pushing 20%(though probably a bit less).

So keep plugging away. Rome wasn't built in a day. It may take years to do what you want.

Build volume on hanging leg raises or at least on the dip station.

Work on leg lifts (these are great and easy to do) and compression strength. Keep working on L-sits. Add rotational exercises(twists, chops, pass throughs, etc).

On leg raises the upper half of the ROM between parallel with the ground and bar is what emphasizes the abs. The lower half of the ROM with legs perpendicular to the ground and up to parallel works mostly the hip flexors so keep that in mind when you're doing them on a dip station.

Do decline sit ups. Add weight.

Whatever you think is enough volume, add more.

Hey can you tell me if leg raises for 15-20 reps with 20-25 lbs in between my legs is good ab strength?

 

[1rawdog]

Hi, apologies for not getting back to you. When I submitted my last reply, yours popped up when my page refreshed, but time got away from me. I'm still looking through the link you sent me, but I appreciate your reasoning. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to also experiment. I can try bumping up my protein intake to different amounts and checking in with myself to see how it all plays out in my body.

What should I be focused on when it comes to carbs and fats, by the way? And why is leucine specifically so important? One final thing (for now): thanks for mentioning protein leveraging, I had never heard of that before. It's fascinating to read about as well

no worries on getting back right away , happens all the time, I don't think anyone counts on it or at least they prob shouldn't, people have lives. Me too, I only come on here on my laptop so ain't always handy.
None of this is simple but if you are 70kg? How tall (just curious)? Describe your activity in a week in a bit of detail including times. If you post that up you'll get some input here I'm sure.
I'd answer right now but what I suggest is a little bit intense meaning there is some strictness and work involved, counting macros, weighing and measuring food etc. It's too much of a PITA for most people unless they are very serious. In general I'd want you to figure out your TDEE (google), and use that to make an educated guess about where to start and then dial it in. Total daily calories, then Protein, then fill in the rest with an essential amount of fats and carbs.
You can certainly make improvements with a more rough approach though.

Leucine- very simplified answer, you need to ingest a minimum amount to "flip the switch" that starts the muscle building process.