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Muhammed ali-micheal jordan effect

Discussion in 'Boxing Discussion' started by devante, Jun 9, 2008.

  1. devante

    devante Silver Belt

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    Ali was first; but his fame in boxing helped impact boxing the same way jordan did to basketball, the way people played..carried themselves and attacked the sport was adjusted by his popularity/performance.

    some purist say micheal ruined basketball, because people got hung up on dunking, dropping huge amounts of points, and things of that nature.


    my question do u feel Ali did the same, where his talking, charisma impacted boxers; i mean so many guys try to be slick and talk fast and attack an opp w/insults to break him down.

    secondly his habit of pulling head back, dropping hands, showboating, talking sh*t while fightings..

    agree disagree muhammed ali impacted boxing as a whole and to some degree, negatively; as soo many people want to showboat, talk ish b4 and during a fight and some people leaning on athletic ability more so that tech fine tuning
     
  2. GlassJaw

    GlassJaw SBC hustler.

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    I suppose it's a yes and no kind of thing. You could also look at the Mike Tyson (Jack Dempsey) effect. Boxing is a unique sport in how it admires it's heroes.

    I wouldn't say Manny Pac or Oscar resemble Ali or Tyson.:icon_chee
     
  3. Sharkey

    Sharkey Who finishes 3rd?

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    "I can't stand heavyweights who talk too much." - Muhammad Ali, page 359 of 'My Own Story'

    Funny.
     
  4. gomiplata**

    gomiplata** Banned Banned

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    Wow, Ali is really a tool if he said that. I like the trash talk though, as long as you're like Floyd Mayweather and not Ken Shamrock. You just have to back it up, it's part of the game and helps garner fans.
     
  5. Russie

    Russie Black Belt

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    There was a method behind the madness of Ali. He was all about getting in his opponents head. Even before they ever got in the ring he made his opponent a mental mess. In the ring he showboated when he knew his skills were far superior to that of his opponent.

    Today all of the pre-fight BS is to hype fights and sell tickets. Most of it is just stupid how they act.

    Many have tried to duplicate what ALi did but fail miserbly. So yes Ali is partly responsible for what we see. I wonder how many current fighters even know why Ali did the shuffle. He did it to divert the attention to his feet so he could quickly strike him with his attention diverted. Seldom did Ali's showboating backfire on him. I see guys getting clocked left and right showboating becasue they don't have the skill to pull it off.
     
  6. devante

    devante Silver Belt

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    exactly my point how many fighters judah-nate campbell-roy jones-naseem hamedand so on get blasted dropping their hands pulling their heads straight back; an those are the better fighters, there are countless lower tier guys who do so. Not to mention people who train boxing and fight on the street try to pull that sh*t off...when they lack the speed/ reaction and CHIN to do so

    just like everyone who plays casual high school collegiate level is always jordan w/three seconds to go..
     
  7. SWATCOP

    SWATCOP Green Belt

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    There's something to be said for getting in your opponents' head, but at the same time, Ali said things that went too far at times, particularly to Joe Frazier. Calling Frazier an "uncle tom", and the "white man's champion" were really out of line, especially considering that Frazier came from a much rougher background than Ali did.

    It should also be noted that at his Supreme Court hearing in 1967(?), Ali apologized for his statement about having no quarrel with the Viet Cong. This happened, look it up. This may have been why he was allowed to fight again. But few people know that Ali admitted that he was wrong. Also, if you read quotes from guys like Ray Robinson and Archie Moore, they can tell you that Ali's "white man is the devil" act got really old, and no one was really trying to hear that, because they knew he was full of crap.
    As Larry Holmes was quoted as saying in the book, "Facing Ali", "Ali would f**k a snake if you held its head", and it wouldn't matter what color the snake was.
     
  8. Sharkey

    Sharkey Who finishes 3rd?

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    Finish the quote off, Swat;

    "You don't even have to hold the motherfucker's head. Just give him the snake."
     
  9. mozfonky

    mozfonky We oughta be fightin' a bottle of Geritol.

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    am i seeing shit talking about ali, sharks, you know how i am about that. You act like he owes you money. And as for Holmes, he's displaying why the fans never really took to him and it's not just because he followed Ali, he's a giant ass. Imagine any other fighter acting like that. Maybe other athletes but not fighters. As far as holmes and ali's women, how would he know? He was not in the bedroom, neither was jim brown who insists ali loved white women. The people who were closest to him, Pacheco,Lloyd Wells etc.., all say that he would politely decline white pussy.
     
  10. GlassJaw

    GlassJaw SBC hustler.

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    There's all kinda "i dunnnnooooo" about that Foz. I mean, would you?
     
  11. mozfonky

    mozfonky We oughta be fightin' a bottle of Geritol.

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    was a time when i'd say no under any circumstances, they just used to really rub me wrong, but i've grown to the point that i realize all women are going to do that in some way. so as you say " I dunnoooooooooooooooo" I love poon.
     
  12. Sharkey

    Sharkey Who finishes 3rd?

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    I'm just offering up some quotes, Moz, which just happen to be words attributed to someone else (with one being from Ali himself) and not my own. I'm just the messenger as you can see.

    But anyways, with your "you know how i feel about that" comment, are you saying that I should run my Ali-related posts by you first just so I don't hurt your feelings or something like that?

    Sorry, but "how (you) am about that" has no bearing on what I may or may not post in regards to Ali.
     
  13. Shaolin Bushido

    Shaolin Bushido Yamato Damashii

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    Ali wasn't as "good"(in terms of his wit and intelligence) or as "bad"(villainized by his critics, ie, coward accusations, etc).

    What he harped on with Frazier is the same stuff you'd hear guys around the barber shop saying about each other about their features, looks et al.

    He also added in jibes that were signs of the times with all the Uncle Tom shit. It made his supporters' chuckle while infuriating Frazier. hell, much of the stuff attributed to him was actually products of his trainer Drew Bundini Brown and likely others.

    Ali was no angel, no perfect wordsmith nor political activist. During the 60's many of the young folk were familiar of political issues but they were probably just as clueless as todays' youth in terms of ACCURACY or specifics. Hell, my own mom participated in sit-ins and shit like that.

    As I said, the flames he directed at Frazier were typical .... AND ignorant. He was more of a tom than Frazier ever was.

    mozfonky ... I'm an Ali fan too; I idiolized him but the kid that loved his skill and flair is long gone and the man I am today recognizes the antics of an immature, irresponsible guy who often said and did things and failed to man up and retract those statements because he couldn't summon up the courage to humble himself in the media.

    Perfect examples were him apologizing to Frazier privately(thru intermediaries) while dissing him in public. Frazier showed the class and character in not accepting those overtures UNTIL ALI PERSONALLY TENDERED THEM.
     
  14. mozfonky

    mozfonky We oughta be fightin' a bottle of Geritol.

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    not at all sharks, just reminding you that you can't just spread such stuff without me saying something. I'm gonna defend the man, you know that from our past little quarrels. Like i said, you act like he did something to you, you never even met the man more than likely.
     
  15. Sharkey

    Sharkey Who finishes 3rd?

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    Have we really quarreled about Ali in the past, Moz?

    Shoot, besides a discussion we had quite some time about Ali getting knocked down in sparring and the legitimacy of those knockdowns (where, I think, you blew them off as him acting), offhand I honestly don't recall any other discussions between us when it came to Ali.

    But speaking of sparring knockdowns, have you read this account from Ali, which was on page 351 of 'My Own Story' and was said to have happened while sparring Blue Lewis on the last day of training for the Quarry fight?

    "Now I see a blow like that coming. It starts out for the pit of my stomach, but suddenly curves and crashes into my ribs. The pain is like a terrible toothache shooting through bones, up the spine, up the back of my head. I hang there, my back against the ropes, while he sends telegrams of more to come crushing into my side. Then I slide slowly down the ropes to the canvas."

    That's a short version of what Ali was talking about, as he goes on and describes how his camp thought he was joking, all the pain he was in, the doctor visit, etc., etc., as well as a similiar incident where he got knocked down by Ellis with a rib shot just previous to the Liston fight.

    What do you think, Moz...More play acting on Ali's part?

    Anyways, no Ali never did anything to me, but believe it or not (and it may be tough with some of my long wided rants on here), personally I'm a very quiet and reserved type of guy, whose generally turned off by things like mocking, bragging, clowning, etc., no matter whose doing such things, whether it be a boxer like Ali or someone else like a Sean Avery for example*. He had a polarizing personality, in the ring and out, that not all are going appreciate and enjoy, so while you may think of him as someone to worship or whatever you may do, not everybody is going to view him the same. I also don't care much for how he was given so much leeway, in the ring and out, during his last few years in boxing, whether it be from the judges or other boxing officials (like the ABC's who kept giving him a pass, and doing so by breaking there own rules), as well as Ali's own hypocritical stance on some things.

    But whatever, he was a friggin fantastic fighter for most of his career in the ring, and if I cared enough to compile such things, I would still consider him one of the two greatest heavyweights in history despite what I think of the personailty he showed. He & Louis are basically 1 and 1A as far as I'm concerned.

    *Here, I'll let Ali describe a fighter who I do think more highly of as a person to illustrate the type of personailties I more appreicate. It also expands on the first quote I gave in this thread;

    "Rocky was quiet, peaceful, humble, not cocky or boastful. I can't stand heavyweights who talk too much."
     
  16. SWATCOP

    SWATCOP Green Belt

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    I grew up a huge Ali fan myself, still am in terms of his fighting ability. It's just that everyone seems to think of him as such a great man, without fault, who stood up to the government, and hated the white establishment. In reality, he was human, with serious character flaws just like everyone else, except he chose to scream and yell hypocrisy every time a camera or microphone got near him. Apologizing to the Supreme Court is a good example of that. Here is a guy that has such strong convictions, and really believed in what he was saying, yet when the money stopped rolling in, and it looked as though there was really a possibility that he wouldn't fight again, he backpedaled, but never talked about the fact that he did that. The thing with Joe Frazier is probably the best example. It's why Joe Frazier still has animosity toward him to this day. Hell, he even referred to Joe Louis as an Uncle Tom simply because Joe didn't agree with his views.
     
  17. mozfonky

    mozfonky We oughta be fightin' a bottle of Geritol.

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    Yeah we've quarrelled quite a bit with Ali, you must have short memory. As far as you being a quiet guy, I am too and don't like most guys who do that kind of thing but Ali did it in his own way, with humour and likeablity(most of the time). No I don't worship him or anyone, I've outgrown the need for that but he's still someone I adore a great deal and should meet before he's no longer with us. As a man, I've modeled many of the things he's done, as well as other men of the past. Not letting money be my god, not letting white people do whatever they want to me etc.., In those days, a black man acting like that was revolutionary. Many people only wished they had the courage to stand up to the white man like that. Even today, most of my black friends button there lips on race related issues around white people, I call them on it because even though I'm quiet and humble I believe there is a time for mouth. Ali picked the right time, any earlier or later and he would have been either shut out or just another guy with an attitude.

    It's interesting how people really did believe the ali act, it was largely an act for which even he tried to change later. His manager used to say that part of his ailment was from mocking god with his I am the Greatest stuff. I don't believe that but I'm sure you've read that Ali in private is the exact opposite of what he was in public. A quiet man with simple needs and he became moreso the older he got. Some of the things he did were unforgivable, his leaving malcolm in the cold was something I, as a Malcolm student could never forgive him for. His own stupidity and ego when it came time to call it quits and letting himself get used by the leaches around him was also a very bad quality but he only hurt himself with that, and badly.
     
  18. Tobacco

    Tobacco --------------------------------------------------

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    Any thoughts on Marciano as a personality?

    I know he was really cheap and had some silly concepts of money, and in a sense that caused his death.

    But it is pretty rare I get to hear Marciano talk. Anybody have some thoughts or links to vids?
     
  19. mozfonky

    mozfonky We oughta be fightin' a bottle of Geritol.

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    Marciano (along with the rest of the heavyweights) was crazy about pussy and would go to many lengths and extremes for it. He was also quite a dirty fighter in the ring one of the dirtiest of all the heavyweight champs. His thrift ruined friendships, Arthur Mercante writes of how Marciano died with them still not speaking to each other over advertisement money. Mercante felt foolish as they both should have. Most champs are pretty charitable with the green stuff, Marciano was the cheapest of the cheap. Other than those things, i can't think of much bad to say about the man. He epitomized champion better than just about anyone else. Deserves all the good said about him, he had solid character as most of the great champs did.
     
  20. Sharkey

    Sharkey Who finishes 3rd?

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    You forgot to add the part about Marciano being a white man and therefore is the Devil in your eyes, Moz, considering your obvious anger against white people has generally been such an underlying theme in many of your posts since you first started posting here way back when.

    Seriously, from my part I know it gets very boring reading those racial thoughts of yours in so many different posts (like your previous one on Ali), and while I'm sure you have your own personal reasons for feeling the way you do, doesn't it get boring from your part when you come on a boxing forum (not a political or race relations forum) and continuously type in that stuff?

    Ah well, whatever...It does make it tough to have kind of boxing discussion with you, though, when you're always bringing in race related issues into things time and time again. But hey, maybe you'd like to uproot yourself, drive a few miles north, and find yourself a new home up here in Canada where we generally don't have such a racial divide between each other?

    If you do, just don't expect me to invite you over for dinner, though, as you'd probably try to convince my wife and her family, as well as one of my best buddies, Mark, that I'm an evil white guy or something like that.
     

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