Muhammad Ali and the compubox numbers

[DeJulez]

http://www.sportingnews.com/boxing/...the-numbers-legacy/10zpedj878ucp1j9uesixqshfm

Interesting article. Talks about the flaws in compubox. Brings up how round 7 in Pacquiao-Bradley, compubox had Pacquiao outlanding Bradley 27-11, but all three judges gave Bradley that round.
When you review the fight Bradley actually outlands Pacquiao 16-12.
Brings up some other fights Pacquiao-Horn and Lewis-Holyfield but then gets into Ali and his numbers.
Compubox basically has Ali not being great statistically and has him getting hit alot more often then remembered.
Said Liston was out landing Ali in their first fight 103-95 when Liston quit on his stool in the 6th. Also mentions that due to Listons glove blinding Ali, Liston outlanded Ali 37-1 in the 5th round.

I Don't know. Interesting stuff but compubox is hit or miss to me.

 

[pookiyama]

"When you review the fight Bradley actually outlands Pacquiao 16-12."

Don't believe it. Everything is discredited now.

 

[mozfonky]

http://www.sportingnews.com/boxing/...the-numbers-legacy/10zpedj878ucp1j9uesixqshfm

Interesting article. Talks about the flaws in compubox. Brings up how round 7 in Pacquiao-Bradley, compubox had Pacquiao outlanding Bradley 27-11, but all three judges gave Bradley that round.
When you review the fight Bradley actually outlands Pacquiao 16-12.
Brings up some other fights Pacquiao-Horn and Lewis-Holyfield but then gets into Ali and his numbers.
Compubox basically has Ali not being great statistically and has him getting hit alot more often then remembered.
Said Liston was out landing Ali in their first fight 103-95 when Liston quit on his stool in the 6th. Also mentions that due to Listons glove blinding Ali, Liston outlanded Ali 37-1 in the 5th round.

I Don't know. Interesting stuff but compubox is hit or miss to me.

sounds like bullshit. Liston came out swinging in the first round and Ali made a fool out of him. He landed only 1 or 2 punches of any real consequence in the whole fight notwithstanding the round where ali was blinded. Bill Cayton supposedly did his own compubox numbers comparing the 60's ali to the 70's ali, he said that Liston and Williams landed very few punches (can't remember exactly) and that Frazier landed hundreds in Manila, his point was ali fought past his prime, which is undeniable. Even if this article is right, punchstats do not give indication of the cleaness or significance of blows, only that they might have made some kind of contact. Ali/Frazier one is the best arguement against compubox, ali outlanded joe 3-1 (this was Ali and Larry Merchant's estimate, not compubox because it didn't exist at the time, but it's roughly true) and he still did not deserve the win. Lots of other factors, ring generalship, aggression, who makes the fight, and just plain subjectivity goes into scoring, even kayoes leave a lot of arguements.

 

[DeJulez]

sounds like bullshit. Liston came out swinging in the first round and Ali made a fool out of him. He landed only 1 or 2 punches of any real consequence in the whole fight notwithstanding the round where ali was blinded. Bill Cayton supposedly did his own compubox numbers comparing the 60's ali to the 70's ali, he said that Liston and Williams landed very few punches (can't remember exactly) and that Frazier landed hundreds in Manila, his point was ali fought past his prime, which is undeniable. Even if this article is right, punchstats do not give indication of the cleaness or significance of blows, only that they might have made some kind of contact. Ali/Frazier one is the best arguement against compubox, ali outlanded joe 3-1 (this was Ali and Larry Merchant's estimate, not compubox because it didn't exist at the time, but it's roughly true) and he still did not deserve the win. Lots of other factors, ring generalship, aggression, who makes the fight, and just plain subjectivity goes into scoring, even kayoes leave a lot of arguements.

The book also claims that Folley was outlanding Ali 66-61 at the time Ali KOd him.
I dont believe that either.
The book also claims that Ali had 7 rounds in his career where he did not land a punch, mostly by choice of feinting.

But against Cleveland Williams compubox claims Williams landed 10 punches. The guys who owned most of Alis film rights, Bill Cayton and Steve Lott, said Cleveland only landed 3 punches. The guy writing the article reviewed the tape and also got 3 punches.
Doesnt seem like compubox knows what they are doing in this case.

 

[SuperLuigi]

The CompuBox operators go through a thorough training process where they make them conform to past results. Basically they beat the normal out of them. The results often don't conform to reality.

 

[The Adder]

Anyone who takes compubox seriously loses all credibility.

 

[HardasNAILZ]

Compubox - HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

Fucking twerps.

 

[Cross_Trainer]

This would actually make some sense.

Ali surprised everybody in the 70s with his durability. Perhaps he was displaying it in the 60s as well, but his other abilities made it harder to notice.

 

[mozfonky]

This would actually make some sense.

Ali surprised everybody in the 70s with his durability. Perhaps he was displaying it in the 60s as well, but his other abilities made it harder to notice.

there were times and fights where he was hit, chuvalo was an uphill battle all the way, he got hit plenty in that. The folley fight, folley landed some good overhand rights but he was too old by that point to really be a threat, ali looked flat in that fight to me. then of course the pre championship fights before he was mature, he took some punches in his tougher fights, I still think cooper hit him harder than anyone, even frazier, just by the way his whole body flew back.

 

[mozfonky]

also, the dancing for fifteen rounds was never true, never, there were a couple fights where it was close to being true but even in the liston fights he fought half of it flat footed. I think it was norman mailer who called it a myth that all he did was run, may have been wilfred sheed, but it was said and it was true.

 

[Cross_Trainer]

there were times and fights where he was hit, chuvalo was an uphill battle all the way, he got hit plenty in that. The folley fight, folley landed some good overhand rights but he was too old by that point to really be a threat, ali looked flat in that fight to me. then of course the pre championship fights before he was mature, he took some punches in his tougher fights, I still think cooper hit him harder than anyone, even frazier, just by the way his whole body flew back.

Yeah, he was still young against Cooper. Still, *if* we take the Compubox numbers seriously (big if, I know), it may be that some of his reputation for elusiveness came from the fact that he was durable enough to make the punches that did get through look weaker than they were.

It wouldn't make a huge difference either way, but it would slightly alter the way we look at his style.

 

[mozfonky]

the sixties ali had all the questions any young fighter has, they always get answered, does he have heart? does he have chin? does he have fighting smarts and intelligence? When I saw eubank jr. I thought he was real promising but only physically, too many other things you can't see early on to think that he'd be a great or even champion fighter.

 

[DeJulez]

the sixties ali had all the questions any young fighter has, they always get answered, does he have heart? does he have chin? does he have fighting smarts and intelligence? When I saw eubank jr. I thought he was real promising but only physically, too many other things you can't see early on to think that he'd be a great or even champion fighter.

I do want to buy this book even if the numbers are off. Still seems interesting to read through and see how they breakdown all his fights

 

[mozfonky]

I do want to buy this book even if the numbers are off. Still seems interesting to read through and see how they breakdown all his fights

well, i'll check it out, probably won't buy it unless it really impresses me. I've had so many Ali books by now, there are only a couple that I want anymore because only a few have new stuff. I'm sure his later years will eventually be covered better, probably in a real bad light because of his condition. Also, i think maybe some of his quirks may come out in terms of how he treated lonnie, i heard he could say mean, cruel things, which I find very easy to believe as i really don't think people totally change all that much throughout their lives.

 

[mozfonky]

also, said it before because of readings about all kinds of historical figures, new books always are coming out with different slants because they have to sell. In fact, I saw one on geronimo earlier today where the author proposed that geronimo was a family man who avoided warfare. What would be the point of another book about a bloodthirsty Indian?