Mud Wrestlers of Indian
- Thread starter MLarson
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Fan of Kushti.
Many indigenous wrestling styles overseas are matches to the takedown (or first to ____) takedowns.
Both Kushti and American Folkstyle (collegiate) are pin dominant.
Many indigenous wrestling styles overseas are matches to the takedown (or first to ____) takedowns.
Both Kushti and American Folkstyle (collegiate) are pin dominant.
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They're the originals. Other nations can talk about being the birthplace of modern freestyle wrestling, but the ones who have a clearly documented continuous tradition are the Indians. I will always root for Indian wrestling because of this.
They were wrestling on the ground when a lot of the rest of the world was still doing that, "I threw you off your feet so the match is over" thing. Which is sort of ironic, because some people believe the Great Gama was almost purely a stand-up wrestler.
They were wrestling on the ground when a lot of the rest of the world was still doing that, "I threw you off your feet so the match is over" thing. Which is sort of ironic, because some people believe the Great Gama was almost purely a stand-up wrestler.
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isn't martial arts thought to have originated in India?
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Couple of good videos, thanks!
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There's definitely people who argue that. And certainly, they are home to many ancient martial arts that have most likely had influences on other arts that came to practiced worldwide.
And you have the whole Bodhidharma kung fu thing as well.
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So, in anthropology and archaeology there's a hypothesis which is called hyperdiffusionism which alleges that any innovation in history happens exactly once and then is just spread to other places. It's considered absolutely bunk these days by pretty much anyone who's actually credible in the fields, but the idea has taken a place in the general cultural consciousness.
India is the place we know of with the oldest codified martial arts systems - people who generally think in hyperdiffusionist terms like to take that as saying that people living in India (probably the proto-Indo-Europeans, since that's another thing that's quite well established in mainstream non-academic culture) are the ones who 'invented' martial arts and then it spread and mutated to every other culture in the world.
Horseshit.
Fighting and grappling is an instinctive part of the human - the primate, even - experience. Watch bunches of chimps fighting and you'll see striking and grappling there too. It is far more likely that martial art traditions have evolved more or less wherever there are humans because we always fight and there's only so many ways of doing stuff.
Kforcer is however 100% correct that India is the place with the longest documented continuous tradition of wrestling, which is super cool. Indian culture has a surprising combination of an ability to adapt to outside influences while remaining and conserving their traditions, and wrestling is part of that. There's been documented wrestling in India since the Ramayana, which was probably around 7th century BCE and they'd probably been wrestling long before that, too. The fact that this tradition is still in India, not unchanged, but continuous, is amazing and I'm very happy it exists and that it's getting more eyes on it.
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We used to call it the "Great Man Theory" of history.
I do agree that it seems likely that every civilization had some sort of systematic approach to fighting. If they didn't, then they must have been awesome natural fighters, if they didn't think there was anything about their approach that needed fixing or refining.
That said, I think it is definitely possible that some of the Indian forms of martial arts proliferated into other countries and took on other forms; its possible, for example, that Nagaland kickboxing may have somehow migrated out and eventually grown into what we know as Muay Thai or even tae kwon do, in some sort of roundabout way. I mean, India's religion was exported out into the world, I think it could be the case that the essentially structure of the Bodhidharma story did occur, i.e., Indian Buddhists bringing with them Indian martial arts. Of course, parallel develops also do occur and all that and as Nagaland is close to Burma and Thailand, the influence could've gone the other way or it could've just been something that people in that part of the world were into (kicking people). But anyway, its definitely possible at the least, that some of India's ancient fighting styles, like the Nagaland kick fighting, pelwanhi, that one weapon-fighting style where they practice with real weapons or malla yuddha or that one style where they fought on the ground and used dusters on one hand, its possible that those styles came to have some sort of influence on some of the fighting approaches we're familiar with today, in some way, shape or form.
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I fully agree - there was obviously cross pollination between different nations and cultures - a lot of the current pehlwani style of wrestling has a lot of Mughal influence as compared to the wrestling styles prior to their time in India.
I just really really don't like the idea that "X nation/group/culture invented this thing and everyone else took it from them" because it really simplifies what is a complex field and downplays the ingenuity of people all over the world.
Your point about Indian wrestling being one of the oldest continuous traditions we know of that emphasises ground wrestling is a pretty key point in my opinion - in HEMA there's basically no ground wrestling because the assumption was that you'd be armed and once they were on the ground you could pull a knife and just shank your opponent. Makes me wonder about the cultural factors that influenced the Indian wrestling ruleset.
I just really really don't like the idea that "X nation/group/culture invented this thing and everyone else took it from them" because it really simplifies what is a complex field and downplays the ingenuity of people all over the world.
Your point about Indian wrestling being one of the oldest continuous traditions we know of that emphasises ground wrestling is a pretty key point in my opinion - in HEMA there's basically no ground wrestling because the assumption was that you'd be armed and once they were on the ground you could pull a knife and just shank your opponent. Makes me wonder about the cultural factors that influenced the Indian wrestling ruleset.
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This is interesting. So regards Catch Wrestling, do we think the ground fighting aspect came mainly through the Pehlwani influence and then developed more into specific holds?
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Not sure. A lot of people theorize as much; I mean, I guess there was at least some influence, since you had Indian wrestlers and Western catch-wrestlers engaging in matches with one another, Gama being the most famous example. And of course, Pehlwani conditioning methods were a primary influence on Karl Gotch and thus, a primary influence on catch-wrestling in its modern form, in as much as all the catch guys who follow Gotch's conditioning methods are practicing Pehlwani conditioning.
So I guess there's no arguing that it was an influence, but as to whether it was a formative influence, I'm not sure. Its certainly reasonable to surmise that it was and its been posited by others as such.
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The conditioning methods have most heavily influenced the world of professional wrestling thanks to Gotch. High rep squats especially have been a prerequisite for wrestling students everywhere for decades. Plus these exercises were an easy way for guys to stay in shape while on the road so often....Some of the best conditioned wrestlers used and still use these methods including the likes of Ric Flair, Bob Backlund and William Regal who still does 1000 squats a few times a week.
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There's definitely also a whole generation of guys connected to catch who swore by them and still do. It was a huge influence on Shooto and Pancrase and no shortage of guys beyond that as well. Sayama and Fujiwara both propagated his conditioning methods and then you have guys like Barnett as well who brought it to later generations.
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For sure especially with Inoki carrying on the tradition as well ...
Here is a funny video of Ken Shamrock telling a story about Gotch cooking everyone doing a deck of cards workout when he was in his 60's, and somewhat drunk.
And here is a rare video of Gotch working out with Inoki:
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It's such a shame that there's no match of the great gama on tape.
