Shoop MS PAINT V4 VOTING THREAD <RED THREAD>

[Arqueto]

The difference between free-handing lines in MS Paint using a mouse vs a tablet is pretty distinct in my opinion. While I agree it's not making your idea/final output inherently better, it is enough of a difference that makes the competition unfair to a degree. Again, just my two cents....not taking anything away from anybody. Amazing concepts, amazing execution!

I can agree with the speed part but saying a 'big difference' with accuracy I don't, look at the quality of some of the lines from the last contest that people produced using a mouse there is barely a difference.

If we are talking about accuracy then the line tools in Paint are by far the best. I can produce way better linework with the curve tool in Paint than I can with a pen.

People who used a mouse have been kicking peoples butts who have used a tablet in this comp for years so these big differences and huge gaps that are making the competition unfair you're talking about I'm just not seeing them brother.

 

[lostdog000]

i used a pen/pad from the windows xp days. on w10. waccom. it doesnt work well, but as a bit better than a mouse,
i still couldnt convey the ugliness of my subjects face in my entry

 

[dindonker]

Now i need to give my 2 cents on the pen usage to make some things clear & maybe give a different perspective.

Not that my work showcases any of it (in fact most of it are stylized sloppy drawings) but a person who knows how to draw is not gonna suddenly forget everything he knows about anatomy, proportions, perspective, composition etc. and draw like an 8 year old just because he's using a mouse. He'll still know where this line should be drawn or how this leg should look from that angle. It'll just take longer but he'll get there. It is a different story when we talk about more advanced softwares where things like value/color blending & dynamic line thickness come into play. Pressure sensitivity of the pen is decisively important in those scenarios. But MSPaint doesn't have anything to do with pressure sensitivity. It's drawing in the most elementary form.

And who would be able to tell the difference anyway? How we gonna be sure if someone really used a mouse? We gonna take his word for it? Do we need to draw intentionally bad to pass the eye test?

And why the ones that are relatively well drawn keep getting more votes even when everybody use their mouses? Wasn't this contest supposed to be about something else?

Tracing a photo or someones work is banned but i think it's perfectly legal to make the drawing on paper and then trace your own work in mspaint. Tracing shouldn't be that hard. Here is a solution for you to even the playing field. Who knows maybe someone's already done it before.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

I'm not here to argue.....

Sorry, I didn't express that this is actually a legit concern that's been under very deep discussion behind the scenes a lot more than you know... & it's been ongoing since before this contest. So my rebuttals to you were not meant to seem argumentative, but to pull as much trooth out of this as I can from anyone who had something to offer.

This is the way potato council discussions sometimes go, but we hash it out, hug it out & move on.

have used tablet equipment. I know the advantages of the equipment. You're talking big differences in speed, accuracy and fluidity.

I can agree with the speed part but saying a 'big difference' with accuracy I don't, look at the quality of some of the lines from the last contest that people produced using a mouse there is barely a difference.

If we are talking about accuracy then the line tools in Paint are by far the best. I can produce way better linework with the curve tool in Paint than I can with a pen.

People who used a mouse have been kicking peoples butts who have used a tablet in this comp for years so these big differences and huge gaps that are making the competition unfair you're talking about I'm just not seeing them brother.

a person who knows how to draw is not gonna suddenly forget everything he knows about anatomy, proportions, perspective, composition etc. and draw like an 8 year old just because he's using a mouse. He'll still know where this line should be drawn or how this leg should look from that angle. It'll just take longer but he'll get there. It is a different story when we talk about more advanced softwares where things like value/color blending & dynamic line thickness come into play. Pressure sensitivity of the pen is decisively important in those scenarios. But MSPaint doesn't have anything to do with pressure sensitivity. It's drawing in the most elementary form.

Thank you all for this discussion. This has been something that's been tossed around the back room for a while now & so this is all a great discussion from both sides.

I'm about to hook up with one... so I'll know a little something myself here pretty soon.

Based on what I've heard, it sounds like without pressure sensitivity & being stuck in MS Paint... you're really not getting much more than a speed advantage, which nobody should really have a problem with.

I've used MS Paint for 30+ years

Why didn't you enter bro?

Spoiler

And who would be able to tell the difference anyway? How we gonna be sure if someone really used a mouse? We gonna take his word for it? Do we need to draw intentionally bad to pass the eye test?

That's another very valid point. How would it be policed even if we did decide to ban sketch pads from the MS Paint competition. I'd also add that we'd have to nix cell phones as well since they're just smaller sketch pads.

I think it's coming into a pretty clear focus that sketch pads are going to be okay for future contests. Certainly the next one. We're not going to undercut round 2 with new rools, but I really don't see this being a valid issue any more moving forward.

And why the ones that are relatively well drawn keep getting more votes even when everybody use their mouses? Wasn't this contest supposed to be about something else?

It does go both wayz. I once spent 15 - 20 hours on a shoop that was beaten by a 15 minute scribble shoop. (he doubled my votes )

We saw @Vasili get 5th place with one of the most technical paints we've seen. (shown below)

Blue 3 of this contest got 3rd & is what could be considered an old school type of shoop.

Point being that super refined technical paints don't always equate to votes. It certainly doesn't hurt, but you gotta have a perfect blend of concept with cleverness as well as execution to pull them votes.

Tracing a photo or someones work is banned but i think it's perfectly legal to make the drawing on paper and then trace your own work in mspaint. Tracing shouldn't be that hard. Here is a solution for you to even the playing field. Who knows maybe someone's already done it before.

Tracing anything is illegal.



The Ancient Brotherhood of the Eternal Potato Council has connectionz in this realm as well as many otherz. So even if you could get away with sketching something in "Earth Realm," competitionz... the eternal mystical beingz of the nether realmz are watching... & their punishments are much worse than any reward you will receive in Earth Realm through shady meanz. They are typically very much more compounded punishments.

I knew this guy in a past lyfe who committed what he thought waz the perfect crime. He did get away with it & died without anyone knowing. However, in a cruel twist of fate, he was reincarnated as @Clippy.

​

So everyone should keep this in mind & just do the right thingz, lest you be delivered a similar fate of vengeance for your ill deedz.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Not the one i use but i'd recommend something like Wacom CTL4100 Intuos or Wacom One
if you are planning to use it for basic shooping or as a mouse substitute. it's in your price range (both the small & medium).

Thank you bud. You & Arq recommend the medium, so I'm going with that.

I would go with the Wacom Intuos they're really good they have some shortcut buttons which can be programmed to whatever keyboard shortcuts you use the most and you can set them up for multiple programs if you're not bothered about having a cable connected to your PC then go for the one without Bluetooth as you can save yourself a few bucks.

I would recommend going for the medium-sized one (I bought a small) though as you will have more control on larger monitors and more fluent strokes are easier to achieve with a bit more surface area.

So glad we discussed this, I would've certainly gotten the small had you not recommended otherwise.
The Wack Em Intuos medium is $200, but amazon got a refurb for a buck 20.... so I think that's gonna be my boiy. It's the
Wacom CTL6100WLK0

Pretty sweet review here


Only the small one has an option for no bluetooth.... at a cheaper price than the bluetooth model. The medium sized one has the manual hookup option too which I like & will probably mostly use.

Now the question is, do I need a fancy pen, or will the one that comes with it be fine? do you have an opinion on Felt or flex nibs?

 

[Arqueto]

Now the question is, do I need a fancy pen, or will the one that comes with it be fine? do you have an opinion on Felt or flex nibs?

I would just stick with the one you get, they're perfectly fine. I haven't tried any other nibs than the standard ones but from what I have picked up the felt ones have more of a pencil feel to them so if you feel you would prefer that go for it, but I would just try the standard one out till you get a feel for the tablet, it may not be for you.

I think BWR had one but just doesn't use it and it doesn't seem to be doing him any harm at all.

What I will say is though that if you use the standard nibs don't be quick to change them when they feel a little rough just rotate the pen or nib. I thought the nib was wearing out and replaced it and thought wtf? I'm going to need a ton of these things but they actually last for ages and I was dumb

Thank you all for this discussion. This has been something that's been tossed around the back room for a while now & so this is all a great discussion from both sides.

Definitely, it's good to have the discussion so everyone can see the different points of view on the use of pens and tablets.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

I have a Wacom Intuos. It's pretty cheap, i paid 50$ five years ago.

Is that the "Art pen & touch?"

That one has cell phone type features such as putting 2 fingers on the screen to zoom & rotate, the new model doesn't have that which makes me wonder if it was faulty or went off by accident sometimes. It's smaller though than the medium modern one though, so I wonder how you like it?

As mentioned, I also wonder if while I'm drawing & maybe I'm posting on my pinky or wrist... if it'll start going into zoom mode in the middle of me doing something else, just because I'm touching 2 different spots.

For the modern one without that feature... I think the keyboard shortcuts for zoom will be fine... or programming zoom into one of the programmable buttons on the pad of the new model might make up for it, but I'm really curious to see what you think of that.

Here's a time stamped video of what I'm talking about for reference.

 

[Iron Skin]

Is that the "Art pen & touch?"

That one has cell phone type features such as putting 2 fingers on the screen to zoom & rotate, the new model doesn't have that which makes me wonder if it was faulty or went off by accident sometimes. It's smaller though than the medium modern one though, so I wonder how you like it?

As mentioned, I also wonder if I'm drawing & I'm posting on my pinky or wrist, if it'll start going into zoom mode in the middle of me doing something else, just because I'm touching 2 different spots.

For the modern one without that feature... I think the keyboard shortcuts for zoom will be fine... or programming zoom into one of the programmable buttons on the pad of the new model might make up for it, but I'm really curious to see what you think of that.

Here's a time stamped video of what I'm talking about for reference.

Mine is just Intuos Pen, i remember Pen and Touch being slightly more expensive.

I think Keyboard shortcuts are easier to use, in photoshop people keeps the left hand on the keyboard to use shortcuts like brush, eraser, zoom, rotate, lasso tool, gradient, and undo.

 

[Natural Order]

I can agree with the speed part but saying a 'big difference' with accuracy I don't, look at the quality of some of the lines from the last contest that people produced using a mouse there is barely a difference.

If we are talking about accuracy then the line tools in Paint are by far the best. I can produce way better linework with the curve tool in Paint than I can with a pen.

People who used a mouse have been kicking peoples butts who have used a tablet in this comp for years so these big differences and huge gaps that are making the competition unfair you're talking about I'm just not seeing them brother.

Fair points, you folks are much more into this than I!

 

[DanAndroid]

I think draw pads do give you an unfair advantage contrary to what many people are saying on here. A real artist used to drawing by hand will not be able to articulate the cursor in the same way they can their wrist. I joined because it was an MS paint contest, I thought we were all using mouse and keyboard on an even playing field.

Draw pads make shading with hash marks easier, it makes drawing shapes easier, it makes the entire act of drawing easier. It doesn't give someone artistic ability but it absolutely gives them a technical advantage. Had I known people were actually using draw pads I wouldn't have even bothered.

If we have two artists drawing on a blank canvas, one using his hand and the other using a stick, I wouldn't necessarily call that fair.

 

[Natural Order]

Sorry, I didn't express that this is actually a legit concern that's been under very deep discussion behind the scenes a lot more than you know... & it's been ongoing since before this contest. So my rebuttals to you were not meant to seem argumentative, but to pull as much trooth out of this as I can from anyone who had something to offer.

This is the way potato council discussions sometimes go, but we hash it out, hug it out & move on.

No worries my man, that was just a blanket statement, not meant at your approach. I figure it would to have already been a hot topic given the history of the competition!

 

[dindonker]

Thank you bud. You & Arq recommend the medium, so I'm going with that.

So glad we discussed this, I would've certainly gotten the small had you not recommended otherwise.
The Wack Em Intuos medium is $200, but amazon got a refurb for a buck 20.... so I think that's gonna be my boiy. It's the
Wacom CTL6100WLK0

Pretty sweet review here


Only the small one has an option for bluetooth at a cheaper price... not the medium sized one... but the medium has the manual hookup option too which I like & will probably mostly use.

Now the question is, do I need a fancy pen, or will the one that comes with it be fine? do you have an opinion on Felt or flex nibs?

Unless you are working in front of a giant screen and can afford sitting further away, you won't need bluetooth at all. And even though there might be some keys on the tablet, they are not enough & you'll still need to use your keyboard which will make the possibility of working from the distance even smaller.

The stock pen is fine. Can't talk for all the models of course but i don't think you'll need a fancy one. I use standard nibs. Felts are quiet good too but they wear down fast. I put some kind of a sheath made from 2-3 layers of dried baby wipe on the tip of my pen to take the hard scratchy feel away & make it feel more like drawing on paper. It kinda emulates the felt nib feel and also protects both the nib & the surface.

 

[Natural Order]

I think draw pads do give you an unfair advantage contrary to what many people are saying on here. A real artist used to drawing by hand will not be able to articulate the cursor in the same way they can their wrist. I joined because it was an MS paint contest, I thought we were all using mouse and keyboard on an even playing field.

Draw pads make shading with hash marks easier, it makes drawing shapes easier, it makes the entire act of drawing easier. It doesn't give someone artistic ability but it absolutely gives them a technical advantage. Had I known people were actually using draw pads I wouldn't have even bothered.

If we have two artists drawing on a blank canvas, one using his hand and the other using a stick, I wouldn't necessarily call that fair.

Solid very valid points mate.

 

[Arqueto]

Fair points, you folks are much more into this than I!

It's all good brother you know I respect your opinion and your shoop work and having this discussion is important and getting everyone's input can benefit the people who compile the rules.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

I think draw pads do give you an unfair advantage contrary to what many people are saying on here. A real artist used to drawing by hand will not be able to articulate the cursor in the same way they can their wrist. I joined because it was an MS paint contest, I thought we were all using mouse and keyboard on an even playing field.

Draw pads make shading with hash marks easier, it makes drawing shapes easier, it makes the entire act of drawing easier. It doesn't give someone artistic ability but it absolutely gives them a technical advantage. Had I known people were actually using draw pads I wouldn't have even bothered.

If we have two artists drawing on a blank canvas, one using his hand and the other using a stick, I wouldn't necessarily call that fair.

I honestly don't care what place I end up in or who's using what as long as they're within the rools. The reward of the art is in the making of the art itself... not the result of a contest. Don't get me wrong, I love it when my shoop gets attention, but I don't need that in order to compete.

Honest question... have you ever used a sketch pad to make an MS Paint?

The reason that I ask is that I wonder if people's imaginations are doing this work of exaggerating the benefit where a hands on experience would tell them otherwise. Maybe people have used it in a different program that allowed pressure & they're mixing in the benifit they saw with that other program... but this competition doesn't allow pressure sensitivity. You're simply using a stick instead of a mouse.

@Arqueto had a sketch pad right there & ready to go, but after doing one character that way, he switched to mouse & did the rest like that. I'm not sure why he would've done that if the pen was so much mightier.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Poor man's sketch pad

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Hole Lee Fook


I just realized I got this fooking thing

​

It's a lazer mouse shaped like a pen. no fooking sketch pad needed, it's just a different shaped mouse.

So much wasted time using the mouse.

This thing is amazing!!



.

 

[Sansnom]

I can agree with the speed part but saying a 'big difference' with accuracy I don't, look at the quality of some of the lines from the last contest that people produced using a mouse there is barely a difference.

If we are talking about accuracy then the line tools in Paint are by far the best. I can produce way better linework with the curve tool in Paint than I can with a pen.

People who used a mouse have been kicking peoples butts who have used a tablet in this comp for years so these big differences and huge gaps that are making the competition unfair you're talking about I'm just not seeing them brother.

Stop trying to find excuses for your cheating @Arqueto. I've never seen such blatant cheating in my life.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Stop trying to find excuses for your cheating @Arqueto. I've never seen such blatant cheating in my life.

This whole convo has been a ruse to get Arqueto to slip. We know he's got to be cheating getting all these mad skills in just a year... we're just not sure how.

 

[Arqueto]

Stop trying to find excuses for your cheating @Arqueto. I've never seen such blatant cheating in my life.

This whole convo has been a ruse to get Arqueto to slip. We know he's got to be cheating getting all these mad skills in just a year... we're just not sure how.

It's a combination of hard work, dedication, eating a healthy balanced diet and taking a whole bunch of steroids shoving fingers into people's eyes and biting them when the ref isn't looking.

I also may have asked @bigwaverider a couple of million questions along the way and that certainly helped a bit.