Mixing kettlebells and power lifting to train despite injuries

[Uchi Mata]

So I really like power lifting, I've found it to be the best out of camp supplement to my BJJ, Judo, and MMA training, but I also continually get injured as my weights go up. I have some pretty severe lower back injuries, and deadlifting specifically always seems to lead to re-injury. I don't want to drop power lifting entirely and I'm well aware of the importance of training the posterior chain, so what I was thinking of was this:

2x per week kettlebell routine (swings, clean and presses, maybe snatches as well)
1x per week 5/3/1 squat and bench

My heaviest kettlebell currently is 20 kg. I realize I won't build anywhere near the raw strength from doing kettlebell stuff as I would from deadlifting, but I also think I'm less likely to re-injure myself as the weight is so much lower (even with greater rep count). I just need to figure out a sustainable S&C routine that doesn't put me on the shelf for a fortnight every few months.

Thoughts? I'm especially interested in anyone else with lower back problems who have found other workable deadlift alternatives.

 

[selfcritical]

Which bells do you have?

 

[spartanMMAn]

Getting injured during dead lifts can be one of "those things" but shouldn't be the norm. If your repeatedly getting injured it may be worth doing a postural assessment and a technical assessment of the lift to see if you have any muscle imbalances, technical deficiencies etc.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Which bells do you have?

I have a 35 lb and 44 lb.

 

[selfcritical]

http://danjohn.net/wp-content/uploads/EasyStrengthPaper.pdf

Here's a protocol that is pretty damn hard to overtrain with, i might prefer it for your situation over 5/3/1. I've used it in the past when my volume of sport work went up. It uses high frequency VERY submaximal barbell lifts, high frequency moderate volume KB ballistic lifts, and various holds for time.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Getting injured during dead lifts can be one of "those things" but shouldn't be the norm. If your repeatedly getting injured it may be worth doing a postural assessment and a technical assessment of the lift to see if you have any muscle imbalances, technical deficiencies etc.

The main problem is that I have loose ligaments from repeated injuries, and they've never regained their tensile strength despite lots of PT and lifting (with a ton of focus on form). Also (to be fair), since I'm a martial artist not a powerlifter I don't want to spend an inordinate amount of time doing rehab and assistance work just so I can deadlift heavy. If I don't deadlift I usually don't have any problems from martial arts alone. I've never spent much time doing cleans for the same reason: to do them correctly would require more work on form and assistance work than I really want to put in as someone who's just looking to get a little stronger for non-lifting sport performance. It has been a while since I've had a form check or postural assessment though, it would probably be worth doing in general.

 

[Uchi Mata]

http://danjohn.net/wp-content/uploads/EasyStrengthPaper.pdf

Here's a protocol that is pretty damn hard to overtrain with, i might prefer it for your situation over 5/3/1. I've used it in the past when my volume of sport work went up. It uses high frequency VERY submaximal barbell lifts, high frequency moderate volume KB ballistic lifts, and various holds for time.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

 

[ThinkGreen]

So are you interested in a program specifically? I think you have the right idea with the lifts to perform - swings, snatches, cleans, etc. I think it'd be more of a conditioning tool than a deadlift replacement due to the light weight, though.

 

[Uchi Mata]

So are you interested in a program specifically? I think you have the right idea with the lifts to perform - swings, snatches, cleans, etc. I think it'd be more of a conditioning tool than a deadlift replacement due to the light weight, though.

No, not so much a program as validation that this isn't a totally silly idea (using kettlebells for posterior chain training in lieu of deadlifts). I figure it will be more conditioning, I'm really using it more as prehab just to keep the spinal erectors strong enough to make it through hard Judo training without working so hard that the discs get irritated. I actually just finished my first kettlebell session, it has the added benefit that I can just store it in a locker at work and do the routine over lunch, which I can't really do with the big lifts since I powerlift on a home rack. I feel pretty good, back feels alive but not injured and my shoulders are pretty shot.

I am curious though for anyone who went from deadlifting to kettlebells and back if they saw big losses, small improvements, or no change at all. There's so much hard to believe testimonials about KB training online that I'm always curious for first hand accounts or what actually worked and what results people saw.

 

[SummerStriker]

Uchi, I have a very similar problem as you.

On a good day, my ORM on DL is about 315, but there are days when my back will tweek trying to pick up 185x5, making a good workout impossible.

I've personally had a lot of luck with a combination of barbell front squats for sets of 5-10 and RDLs for sets of 10-15. I feel like I'm getting the best posterior chain workout I've gotten.

If I need to go even lighter, one arm db rows or lower, bent over db rows get it to.

I personally find kettle bells aggravating to my back sometimes.

 

[selfcritical]

No, not so much a program as validation that this isn't a totally silly idea (using kettlebells for posterior chain training in lieu of deadlifts). I figure it will be more conditioning, I'm really using it more as prehab just to keep the spinal erectors strong enough to make it through hard Judo training without working so hard that the discs get irritated. I actually just finished my first kettlebell session, it has the added benefit that I can just store it in a locker at work and do the routine over lunch, which I can't really do with the big lifts since I powerlift on a home rack. I feel pretty good, back feels alive but not injured and my shoulders are pretty shot.

I am curious though for anyone who went from deadlifting to kettlebells and back if they saw big losses, small improvements, or no change at all. There's so much hard to believe testimonials about KB training online that I'm always curious for first hand accounts or what actually worked and what results people saw.

I used KB sport as my rehab after my ACL reconstruction when I couldn't tolerate much volume of squatting and DLing. That combined with some low-load technique work so that your squat and DL technique don't backslide should be helpful.

 

[Tosa]

My take on it would be to figure out why you hurt your back - technique? More volume or weight than you're prepared for? Not enough local muscular endurance to protect the back? Some kind of imbalance? Even if you don't return to heavy deadlifting being a staple of your program, it'd be worth figuring out, as it may influence other training.

Second, consider sumo deadlift or olympic lifts and their variations. Less stress on the lower back, but still pulling moderate or heavy weight off the ground. Squat, bench and power clean, with some KB work, and other exercises as needed, would work very well.

Finally, the kettlebell work is probably going to focus more on muscular endurance, or maybe power, depending on how it's programmed, rather than maximal strength, which is usually the focus for deadlifts (although they could be used to develop muscular endurance and power).

 

[Genghiz]

So I really like power lifting, I've found it to be the best out of camp supplement to my BJJ, Judo, and MMA training, but I also continually get injured as my weights go up. I have some pretty severe lower back injuries, and deadlifting specifically always seems to lead to re-injury. I don't want to drop power lifting entirely and I'm well aware of the importance of training the posterior chain, so what I was thinking of was this:

2x per week kettlebell routine (swings, clean and presses, maybe snatches as well)
1x per week 5/3/1 squat and bench

My heaviest kettlebell currently is 20 kg. I realize I won't build anywhere near the raw strength from doing kettlebell stuff as I would from deadlifting, but I also think I'm less likely to re-injure myself as the weight is so much lower (even with greater rep count). I just need to figure out a sustainable S&C routine that doesn't put me on the shelf for a fortnight every few months.

Thoughts? I'm especially interested in anyone else with lower back problems who have found other workable deadlift alternatives.

Have you considered using a twice/week lifting template and tacking on higher volume kettlebell work as a finisher?

I am DL'ng twice a week and I've also recently upped my kettlebell volume quite a bit, and I think you are correct. I am starting to think heavy swings and deadlifts are interchangeable. Or, rather heavy swings strengthen the posterior chain to a high enough degree. A buddy I occasionally train with has been doing a bench/squat template for a year, with kettlebell work after each lifting session. He recently tested his deadlift and maxed out at 340lbs. The guy hasn't touched the deadlift in a year and credits the swings. Anecdotal of course, but I'm finding my experience is somewhat similar.

I personally find the deadlift superior for maximum strength gains, but depending on your goals and how you program you could probably get away with one in place of the other. The kettlebell may offer less in the way of max strength development, but it adds a degree of cardio/ballistic type power/and strength endurance that the deadlift doesn't. While strengthening your posterior chain.

 

[FlowWithTheGo23]

You can DL 315 but sometimes hurt your back on 185? Sounds like a form issue.

 

[BrockLesnarSon]

Personally, i'm a HUGE kettlebell fanatic, but i honestly don't think that you are gonna get ultra strong only using kettlebell. Kettlebell works for me as a strenght/endurance tool for conditioning. I use bodyweight movements to build raw strenght during the first semester of the year, the other half i focus on powerlifting movements BUT always using the kettlebells. Good luck, and take care of your body man!!

 

[SummerStriker]

You can DL 315 but sometimes hurt your back on 185? Sounds like a form issue.

No, I've been to DLing class. You ever wake up in the morning with a pain in your neck from sleeping wrong? I have that for my low back routinely. My feet are flat and my left leg is short, so I wear a heel lift in my shoe. My hip mobility and all around strength is good. I'm just not a genetic stud.

 

[Tosa]

A Deadlifting class? Taught by who?

 

[SummerStriker]

"DLing class," as a figure of speech. I didn't learn from Youtube, not that I see anything wrong with that if you are clever.

 

[Ice 9 Cobra]

Have you tried getting or making a T handle? It allows you to go fairly heavy on the swing (depending on your frame)

 

[ironwolf]

I used KB sport as my rehab after my ACL reconstruction when I couldn't tolerate much volume of squatting and DLing. That combined with some low-load technique work so that your squat and DL technique don't backslide should be helpful.

Do you have those sport kettlebells? I just have normal ones but thinking of getting a few pairs of sport KBs.