International Milei's Neoliberal "Shock Therapy" is Devastating Argentina

[Andy Capp]

The Woz. Jobs landed a job contract from Atari and had Wozniak complete the goddamn task all by himself. Then he paid him peanuts and kept the lion's share of the payment to himself.

I get it. He's a grade A twat. He was as dishonest and shitty as Thomas Edison was. But both of them are still celebrated as some of the greatest inventors in American history.

And that's supposed to be a good thing? Agree to disagree on this one CRock.

And yes, that's your new official nickname, like it or not.

 

[Brigfa2]

Daddy is just starting

 

[no fat chicks]

He's got a very easy act to follow. I don't agree with his philosophy but will be happy to eat crow if it works out.

 

[blackheart]

I didn't say anything about socialism

kinda like how I never said anything about Chomsky, but you chose that digression anyway?

(and I did explicitly say that common ownership is compatible with a market economy)

Common ownership is compatible with a market economy, yes, we agree there. But market economy =/= capitalism. Capitalism is definitionally, categorically, not compatible with public/common ownership. Let me help you out.

Capitalism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit."

Capitalism is explicitly incompatible with common ownership, by definition. Market economies however, are not.

and a self-regulating market is the particular invention we're talking about.

Uh what? That doesn't, and has never existed. There is a massive shortage in housing, and has been for years. When is the self-regulation supposed to take affect? Oh, it won't, because there is an incentive structure in place (profit) to encourage a maintaining of the low supply. One example, of like, 1000, that I could give where the market is not regulating itself.

Production obviously existed before that, but we didn't produce nearly as much (or grow at a remotely similar rate). It actually hasn't been around that long.

Yeah - massive leaps in technological innovation tend to do that. None of which can be explicitly attributed to capitalism. In fact, most of the massive leaps of technological innovation are directly from government funded projects and initiatives.

Right, but when you see fit to describe them that way and make inaccurate statements like that, people are going to form their own impressions. It's fine. I'm more interested in the facts, but if you want to know why that post got the reaction it did, I explained it.

"Why that post got the reaction it did" = you and a reactionary crying about it. Lol. As long as your policies and ideology continue to be responsible for immense human suffering, I will continue to describe them as demonic or whatever other pejorative I choose. You can keep crying about it, but I don't care.

Btw - your ideology has sparked the 6th great mass extinction event of planet earth. We have exterminated 80-90% of the natural world and replaced it with farmland and domesticated livestock. Your capitalism is going to drive your species extinct - where does that factor into your analysis?

 

[Fox by the Sea]

man, Buenos Aires is such a cool city, with a great vibe and very laid back, cool people.
i hope they don't lose that spark, and whatever economic hardship there comes they will get over soon.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

-A neoliberal capitalist demon got into office in Argentina last year

'Demon.'

 

[ferrisjso]

I knew that already. But he's only been in office for like half a year now. Why is everybody already expecting a miracle from this guy? Fixing a country's economy isn't a cakewalk.

But we consider what he considers to be fixing an economy to be destroying it. Whether he succeeds or fails at his goals are irelevant the left wants him stopped. If you oppose a free market you're going to oppose politicans who believe in them. Do the right "give socialists a chance". No they don't. Most politically involved people have an ideology and know what they want already.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Greece main issue is that they don't have control over their own currency and getting a correction going is harder as a result.



What claim? that Latin America doesn't has a chronic inflation issue?

https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/PCPIPCH@WEO/WEOWORLD/VEN

Argentina and Venezuela are just a beast on their own.

Top 3 countries

Venezuela 200%
Argentina 93%
Colombia 5%

Yeah in most of Latin America considers anything between 5-10% high inflation and anything over 10% a fucking disaster.

By what measures do you weigh the success of neoliberal reforms in LatAm? GDP growth? I think it's a very complex topic because the way we look at these things tend to be by the means of classical macroeconomic KPIs that do not account for the side effects of such reforms.

You are obviously educated on the subject so you must know that keynesianism was been pretty much weeded out of international instutitions over the pas couple of generations. The IMF and World Bank are pretty ideological in their ways to suggest policies and to follow up on them.

I am not arguing with you because it would mean to provide you with a bunch of sources from years and years of reading French language sources on the topic which would lead nowhere.

Just wondering what your view on that is. Personally I don't even have an opinion. It's too complex. One thing I will say though is that neoliberal reforms typically encompass a loss of sovereignty. Being a nationalist that part doesn't sit well with me ideologically.

 

[blackheart]

'Demon.'

Oh no you're right. Increasing food costs by 50% while cutting subsidies and programs for poor people, is actually angelic divine behavior.

Cry more about words that trigger you

 

[Jack V Savage]

kinda like how I never said anything about Chomsky, but you chose that digression anyway?

No. I don't think you understood the point there. Chomsky writing in the '90s led you astray because trends that were true then are not true today (and Chomsky is also kind of a bad source).

Common ownership is compatible with a market economy, yes, we agree there. But market economy =/= capitalism. Capitalism is definitionally, categorically, not compatible with private ownership. Let me help you out.

Capitalism is explicitly incompatible with common ownership, by definition. Market economies however, are not.

Capitalism is characterized by private ownership, but it's compatible with common ownership. The existence of a SWF, for example, doesn't make a country not capitalist. And if you're choosing to idiosyncratically define it so, then whatever name you want to give that system is a great system. The development of market-based economies--which doesn't just imply the existence of markets somewhere--is the reason for the incredible improvement in living standards of the past couple hundred years.

Uh what? That doesn't, and has never existed.

No, it has. Do some more research on this because you need a lot to participate meaningfully here. See my recommendation of Polanyi.

Yeah - massive leaps in technological innovation tend to do that. None of which can be explicitly attributed to capitalism. In fact, most of the massive leaps of technological innovation are directly from government funded projects and initiatives.

Huh? Of course technological innovation is a result of capitalism (liberalism more broadly, but capitalism is key to that). You think it's just a coincidence?

"Why that post got the reaction it did" = you and a reactionary crying about it.

No, man, no one here is as emotional as you are. I know you will react defensively to hearing it, but I'm genuinely trying to help you. And, my dude, I'm in the leftmost 5% of the population. If I'm a reactionary, the term has no meaning.

Lol. As long as your policies and ideology continue to be responsible for immense human suffering, I will continue to describe them as demonic or whatever other pejorative I choose. You can keep crying about it, but I don't care.

Well, that's great because literally nothing humans have ever done is responsible for *reducing* human suffering more than capitalism has.

When you talk about extinction, you should realize that you're contradicting yourself. Is capitalism a key cause of technological advancement or isn't it?

 

[Cole train]

Hope our 2 argentinians of forum wander into this thread lol

 

[NoSmilez]

@SalvadorAllende any thoughts?

 

[USA!USA!]

Hope they turn things around - we need all of the strong and healthy western countries we can get these days.

 

[Rod1]

By what measures do you weigh the success of neoliberal reforms in LatAm?

What exactly is "neoliberal reforms"? because as far as we can tell Latin America in general is less neoliberal than Western Europe and the US, in general Latin America is not "neoliberal" (whatever the fuck that means).

"neoliberal reforms" is basically what far leftists call Latin America abandoning economic voodoo in favor of more orthodox economic policies but Latin America as a whole has still a long way to go to be on par with developed economies.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

What exactly is "neoliberal reforms"? because as far as we can tell Latin America in general is less neoliberal than Western Europe and the US, in general Latin America is not "neoliberal" (whatever the fuck that means).

"neoliberal reforms" is basically what far leftists call Latin America abandoning economic voodoo in favor of more orthodox economic policies but Latin America as a whole has still a long way to go to be on par with developed economies.

Weird. You don't know what neoliberal reforms are?

 

[Rod1]

Weird. You don't know what neoliberal reforms are?

Because the term neoliberal is a slur.

Its supposed to mean deregulation and less government intervention in the economy.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Because the term neoliberal is a slur.

Its supposed to mean deregulation and less government intervention in the economy.

Yes

 

[Rod1]

Yes

Ok, so most Latin American countries followed economic voodoo that led to constant debt crisis and hyperinflation, most of them compromised and kind of decided that balanced budgets and independent central banks were actually a good thing which led to Latin America not having debt crisis or rampant inflation.

I don't see how is that a bad measure of "neoliberal reforms" they fixed the problem that was aimed to be fixed.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Ok, so most Latin American countries followed economic voodoo that led to constant debt crisis and hyperinflation, most of them compromised and kind of decided that balanced budgets and independent central banks were actually a good thing which led to Latin America not having debt crisis or rampant inflation.

I don't see how is that a bad measure of "neoliberal reforms" they fixed the problem that was aimed to be fixed.

MAin criticism is that inequalties increased following these reforms.

 

[Rod1]

MAin criticism is that inequalties increased following these reforms.

They didn't?

Inequality has been steadily dropping in Latin American countries that have followed "neoliberal reforms".

Inflation and economic crisis are incredibly regressive because the rich are in a better position to protect their assets.