Mike Tyson vs Larry Holmes debate

[XThe GreatestX]

You think Floyd had the best resume in history at welter? I think I'd take a lot of shit if I suggested that. You think his welter resume is better than say, Leonard?

Oh no. But hes probably an all timer at the weight

 

[LangfordBarrow]

No one is saying beating Holmes was like beating Ali but its at LEAST as good a win as Lyle.

OK, that's debatable, but it's comparing prime Tyson to an older Ali.

 

[spacetime]

It was a good win, but it wasn't prime Holmes, so he doesn't get as much credit.

If you watch the fight, Holmes starts of such and such but quickly gets his old rythm and footwork going. The decline is not as substantial as a people make it out to be. Tyson would have clocked him either way. It was a good match-up for him, for whatever reason.

 

[Seano]

OK, that's debatable, but it's comparing prime Tyson to an older Ali.

Ron Lyle was nobody until he lost to Ali, then he became somebody. Ron Lyle is a Berto/Floydlike win for Ali.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Ron Lyle was nobody until he lost to Ali, then he became somebody. Ron Lyle is a Berto/Floydlike win for Ali.

Yeah, I agree more or less, Lyle wasn't really a defining fight for Ali.

 

[ssx]

Peak Tyson would always have beaten the best version of Holmes.
Frazier has a great win over Ali, but other than that, impressively KO'ing Foster is akin to Tyson crushing Spinks. I don't see Frazier beating Quarry or Ellis as being more impressive than Tyson beating Tucker or Thomas. Tyson's list of victims is far more impressive than Frazier's.
Outside of beating Ali once and giving him some tough fights, what has Norton ever done? Berbick, Tucker, Bruno, Smith, Tubbs etc are all better than any wins on Norton's resume.
Even Foreman's resume is not littered with great wins outside of Frazier. His comeback win over Moorer was impressive, but I don't think beating Frazier, Norton, Lyle, Cooney and Moorer is any better than beating Holmes, Spinks, Tucker, Thomas, Tubbs, Biggs and Berbick, etc.

 

[spacetime]

I would like to see Tyson have a go at Ali too. Ali was not nearly as lethal with punches as Lewis...That's why I think Tyson stands a good shot brawling and slugging it out like Frazier did to Ali. Mature Lewis is too complete.Tyson proved repeatedly that he could beat the best jabbers. But a jabber who is also a power puncher and ... Too much.

 

[ssx]

Ali clearly has the best wins on his resume of any heavyweight and it's not really close. After that Tyson, Lewis, Holmes and Wlad have resumes that I believe are pretty similar as far as wins go. Holmes might have a slightly better resume, but the way he won his fights was not as dominant or impressive as Tyson or Lewis.

 

[jabelar]

Then his constitution sucked. You can plug in the numbers here for ideal weight.

http://www.calculator.net/ideal-wei...tinch=10&cheightmeter=186&printit=0&x=71&y=28

Sorry, BMI is totally debunked and actually dangerous for many people. But furthermore, the "ideal" weight is meant entirely in terms of how to live to a ripe old age and isn't based on people who are trying to pack on muscle. It has NOTHING to do with an ideal weight for any given sport.

Back to the original topic, the problem with this entire conversation is that the HW divisions, especially in Tyson's era were a revolving door or a rock-paper-scissors. No one could hold a title without another guy knocking him out. So no amount of fighter "math" will help you figure out who was undeniably the best.

 

[spacetime]

Sorry, BMI is totally debunked and actually dangerous for many people. But furthermore, the "ideal" weight is meant entirely in terms of how to live to a ripe old age and isn't based on people who are trying to pack on muscle. It has NOTHING to do with an ideal weight for any given sport.

Back to the original topic, the problem with this entire conversation is that the HW divisions, especially in Tyson's era were a revolving door or a rock-paper-scissors. No one could hold a title without another guy knocking him out. So no amount of fighter "math" will help you figure out who was undeniably the best.

Even with muscles taken into account, Tyson is still not a natural HW. He was the shortest fighter by far

 

[spacetime]

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Even with muscles taken into account, Tyson is still not a natural HW. He was the shortest fighter by far

He's been a HW since he was a teenager. There's more to size than just height. He would have needed to cut 25 or 30 pounds to make the next weight class down.

 

[r-harper-1]

Well, Tyson couldn't fight Frazier. I don't like how all time heavies lists are just a list of how guys did against Ali.Fighters should be judged by accomplishment, not name notoriety.

He just did more. Unified the HW titles (youngest boxer in history to do so), beat more title holders, more ranked guys etc. He basically defined the sport for almost 2 decades.

Prime Norton and prime Frazier are light years better than anyone Tyson defeated

 

[defjaam]

Holmes was a factor in the HW division for years to come after losing to Tyson.

Tyson is one of those guys that people expect more of than they do from other fighters considered great. His resume is better than Marciano's aside from being undefeated. He did more than George Foreman.

The Hw division- its Louis, Lewis and Ali IMO, then it gets cloudy from there. There's not much that separates the great HWs outside the top 3.

I generally agree with this, but as far as Lennox Lewis and Joe Louis goes... When you take a closer look, I'd say that Lennox and Holyfield are pretty close in terms of resume. The one victory that separates them is the win over Vitali Klitschko.

With Joe Louis, I certainly don't want to discredit him. When I think of an ATG, I think of Joe Louis. Probably the most feared boxer there was.
But which victories of his would put over other ATGs victories? If you contrast his and let's say Larry Holmes resume, what separates them?

 

[Seano]

I generally agree with this, but as far as Lennox Lewis and Joe Louis goes... When you take a closer look, I'd say that Lennox and Holyfield are pretty close in terms of resume. The one victory that separates them is the win over Vitali Klitschko.

With Joe Louis, I certainly don't want to discredit him. When I think of an ATG, I think of Joe Louis. Probably the most feared boxer there was.
But which victories of his would put over other ATGs victories? If you contrast his and let's say Larry Holmes resume, what separates them?

Holyfield had a LOT of losses at HW though. Lewis had 2 and avenged both.

 

[defjaam]

Holyfield had a LOT of losses at HW though. Lewis had 2 and avenged both.

A lot? I assume we're talking Holyfield before he went over the hill on his late 30s, which happened to be the first fight against Lennox Lewis.

He had two losses too (Bowe, Moorer) and avenged both. Of course he then went on to lose the trilogy against Bowe, but that's because he fought Bowe unlike Lennox. Not Lennox fault for not getting the chance of beating Bowe though.

Also Holyfields win over Tyson is better than Lennox win over an older Tyson (and IMO its a better win than Briggs, Tua, Rahman). Again not Lennox fault, Don King blocked Lennox Lewis vs Tyson in 1996.

No doubt that LL was the best of his era, but the gap in terms of resume is fairly small.

 

[Seano]

A lot? I assume we're talking Holyfield before he went over the hill on his late 30s, which happened to be the first fight against Lennox Lewis.

He had two losses too (Bowe, Moorer) and avenged both. Of course he then went on to lose the trilogy against Bowe, but that's because he fought Bowe unlike Lennox. Not Lennox fault for not getting the chance of beating Bowe though.

Also Holyfields win over Tyson is better than Lennox win over an older Tyson (and IMO its a better win than Briggs, Tua, Rahman). Again not Lennox fault, Don King blocked Lennox Lewis vs Tyson in 1996.

No doubt that LL was the best of his era, but the gap in terms of resume is fairly small.

He had 10 losses at the weight.

 

[StoooV2]

Tyson was only ever in 5 real fights.

And he lost them all.

The rest his win wasn't in doubt and his opponent didn't fire much back.

 

[defjaam]

He had 10 losses at the weight.

I commanded you not to count the losses when he was over the hill... James Toney, Ibragimov, Byrd... Really?

 

[defjaam]

Tyson was only ever in 5 real fights.

And he lost them all.

The rest his win wasn't in doubt and his opponent didn't fire much back.

This is why Teddy Atlas needs to keep his mouth shut more often. Morons like this hear his bullshit, buy his bullshit, and then spread it.