Mike Tyson vs Larry Holmes debate

I didn’t read all 5 pages of this thread so if someone already said this I apologize. But I have a few issues with Tyson’s win over Holmes. For starters, Holmes asked for a tune up fight first and he asked for more time to train. From what I understand Don King said no, no time up fight and you have to fight on the date I say you have to fight. I think we saw an unmotivated Larry who was t ready to come back yet but needed that 3 million dollar paycheck. The Larry Holmes we saw that made his return in his 40’s was a Larry Holmes that had much more motivation and got to come back more on his own terms. Just my opinion.

I love Mike Tyson though. I think an impressive accomplishment of his that goes overlooked was stopping Trevor Berbick. Berbick’s chin is iron. Only one other person was able to stop him. Also people forget Tyson’s win over Tyrell Biggs was pretty big. The young undefeated Olympic gold medalist. I even feel like the Carl Williams fight was a pretty solid win. I could keep going lol I think Tyson has a VERY impressive career. It’s hard for me to give him too much credit for the Larry Holmes win though
 
Rob-G said:
I didn’t read all 5 pages of this thread so if someone already said this I apologize. But I have a few issues with Tyson’s win over Holmes. For starters, Holmes asked for a tune up fight first and he asked for more time to train. From what I understand Don King said no, no time up fight and you have to fight on the date I say you have to fight. I think we saw an unmotivated Larry who was t ready to come back yet but needed that 3 million dollar paycheck. The Larry Holmes we saw that made his return in his 40’s was a Larry Holmes that had much more motivation and got to come back more on his own terms. Just my opinion.

I love Mike Tyson though. I think an impressive accomplishment of his that goes overlooked was stopping Trevor Berbick. Berbick’s chin is iron. Only one other person was able to stop him. Also people forget Tyson’s win over Tyrell Biggs was pretty big. The young undefeated Olympic gold medalist. I even feel like the Carl Williams fight was a pretty solid win. I could keep going lol I think Tyson has a VERY impressive career. It’s hard for me to give him too much credit for the Larry Holmes win though
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Pinklon Thomas had an iron chin too. On the downslope of his career but that stoppage was brutal.
 
Seano said:
Holmes was a factor in the HW division for years to come after losing to Tyson.

Tyson is one of those guys that people expect more of than they do from other fighters considered great. His resume is better than Marciano's aside from being undefeated. He did more than George Foreman.

The Hw division- its Louis, Lewis and Ali IMO, then it gets cloudy from there. There's not much that separates the great HWs outside the top 3.
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Lennox is nowhere near Larry Holmes
 
Jello Boyka said:
Lennox is nowhere near Larry Holmes
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Lennox has a superior resume to Holmes. Its not even close.

If you're talking raw talent, then sure, that argument could be made but it was Lewis that translated what he did into wins.
 
And Holmes didn't translate it into wins? Guy was 48-0... 20 consecutive world title defenses.

Lennox, 3 consecutive world title defeneses ... got knocked out, then another 9 consecutive title defenses ... got knocked out again, then 2 consecutive title defenses. 14 combined.

I'd say they're pretty close. If we give Lennox credit for beating a Holyfield and Tyson in their late 30s, we may just as well give Holmes credit for his victory over Ali.
IMO it's again Lennox victory over Klitschko that makes the difference. Larry had trouble with Spinks in the end, whereas Lennox stopped Klitschko.

As far as raw talent goes, I look at it the other way around. Lennox was physically so gifted, that I don't see anyone being MUCH better him... He could do it all: Slug, brawl, fence... could pull a Wladimir as seen against Tua, but could also pull a Tyson as seen against Ruddock, Briggs, Golota, Grant... had every punch in his repertoire... could make adjustments during fights, as proven against Klitschko.
 
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r-harper-1 said:
Prime Norton and prime Frazier are light years better than anyone Tyson defeated
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Tyson would have walked through both of those guys in their prime, just like Foreman did. Really bad matchup for both Norton and Frazier.
 
Ancient Warrior said:
Pinklon Thomas had an iron chin too. On the downslope of his career but that stoppage was brutal.
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ya, he landed some great punches and pinklon took a lot of them, just makes you wonder what a non-druggie pinklon could have done. Also, those kinds of fights make me sort of doubt Tyson's power, at least I kinda doubt how highly it's thought of. Joe Frazier said it once, "i don't think mike hit's that hard" At Mike's best, it was his evasiveness, his speed, combos and commitment. He hit hard enough to kayo a lot of guys easily but I still think it was more speed and timing and skill.. I wouldn't put him in the foreman class, maybe not even in the joe louis class as a puncher. His power was more the snapping, explosive variety, not the damaging ponderous power of a foreman or a liston, and even Louis' punches were legendary as far as the damage they did.
 
djacobox372 said:
Tyson would have walked through both of those guys in their prime, just like Foreman did. Really bad matchup for both Norton and Frazier.
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norton, definitely, frazier i odn't know, don't let the marvis fight make you think it would be anything like that. Even foreman had to land a ton of punches in both fights to put joe away. One of the best parts of Muhammad Ali's autobiography was how when he had foreman on the canvas, his first thought was about none other than Joe Frazier and how Joe would never stay down like that, Ali had high respect for Joe, behind the shittalking.
 
Rob-G said:
I didn’t read all 5 pages of this thread so if someone already said this I apologize. But I have a few issues with Tyson’s win over Holmes. For starters, Holmes asked for a tune up fight first and he asked for more time to train. From what I understand Don King said no, no time up fight and you have to fight on the date I say you have to fight. I think we saw an unmotivated Larry who was t ready to come back yet but needed that 3 million dollar paycheck. The Larry Holmes we saw that made his return in his 40’s was a Larry Holmes that had much more motivation and got to come back more on his own terms. Just my opinion.

I love Mike Tyson though. I think an impressive accomplishment of his that goes overlooked was stopping Trevor Berbick. Berbick’s chin is iron. Only one other person was able to stop him. Also people forget Tyson’s win over Tyrell Biggs was pretty big. The young undefeated Olympic gold medalist. I even feel like the Carl Williams fight was a pretty solid win. I could keep going lol I think Tyson has a VERY impressive career. It’s hard for me to give him too much credit for the Larry Holmes win though
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holmes, at his best is comparable to anyone ever and he'd beat the best tyson we ever saw, would beat the others probably too. He was too versatile an dwell rounded, llots of heart, great chin, great recuperative powers, all around know how, not too big like some of the heavies that came later. He's like Ali, only not quite as fast but with a little more power and technical ability as well as being more disciplined. He didn't start to have bad performances until he was about 34, which is normal for a heavyweight to start to drop off.
 
Younger more mobile Holmes would have been interesting. That said. I never thought Tyson would do what he did to Holmes.

I thought he’d beat him at that point, but that was shocking.
 
Smoking Joe and Tyson would have been fun. Not so sure Tyson wins— don’t think it’s a walk thru
 
Not only to beat Holmes but to DESTROY him, to drop him multiple times and finally KO him, something nobody else ever did, is a huge feather in prime Tyson's cap IMO.

Like mentioned, the "washed up Larry" argument holds no water, because Larry went on to beat prime Ray Mercer and give prime Holyfield a real good fight 4 years later. Holmes fought another 14 YEARS after the Tyson loss, and went 21-3 in that span!
 
Seano said:
BS, Spinks proved himself at HW. He beat Holmes twice and defended his title twice after that.

If Ezzard Charles is a good win for Marciano, then Spinks is a good win for Tyson.
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Can't Tyson and Marciano both have underwhelming CVs? Very odd to keen on returning to this comparison.
 
mozfonky said:
norton, definitely, frazier i odn't know, don't let the marvis fight make you think it would be anything like that. Even foreman had to land a ton of punches in both fights to put joe away. One of the best parts of Muhammad Ali's autobiography was how when he had foreman on the canvas, his first thought was about none other than Joe Frazier and how Joe would never stay down like that, Ali had high respect for Joe, behind the shittalking.
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Frazier was a notoriously slow starter, his nickname was based on that fact. He also fought at a distance that would play into mikes strengths.

IF frazier happened to survive past the 6th round, he'd probably beat the crap out of Tyson--I just don't see much of a chance of him getting that far.
 
djacobox372 said:
Frazier was a notoriously slow starter, his nickname was based on that fact. He also fought at a distance that would play into mikes strengths.

IF frazier happened to survive past the 6th round, he'd probably beat the crap out of Tyson--I just don't see much of a chance of him getting that far.
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he was, if there is a three knockdown rule that could be a factor, he almost lost to bonavena but he'd be getting up everytime tyson put him down and if it comes down to who can go to war better we don't have to question that at all. Tyson didn't have the body that foreman had and it wouldn't be anything like that fight, it would be both guys coming at each other the whole fight until one breaks. Tyson had the better chin, better speed, better all around power but I don't know if he was as smart as joe and wasn't as versatile, joe, if he had to could at least change tactics, tyson didn't ever prove he could do that did he?
 
Absolut said:
Younger more mobile Holmes would have been interesting. That said. I never thought Tyson would do what he did to Holmes.

I thought he’d beat him at that point, but that was shocking.
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to me it wasnt.

1. Holmes was pretty much retired and came out to fight a prim Tyson. If that fight happens 2-3 years later i do not think Tyson would beat him.

Also Prime Holmes beats Tyson.
 
sepp2323 said:
to me it wasnt.

1. Holmes was pretty much retired and came out to fight a prim Tyson. If that fight happens 2-3 years later i do not think Tyson would beat him.

Also Prime Holmes beats Tyson.
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maybe not, people forget it these days when it's common for fighters to fight once or twice a year and retire and come back in a title fight that the fighters of the past couldn't do that, Sugar Ray Robinson lost to a journey man after a couple years retired, and.., before that, it was extremely rare for anyone to come back in good enough form to win a title. Given how impressive Holmes was later on, giving holyfield a reasonably tough fight and beating one of the leading lights of the division in mercer, he may have been able to expose Tyson, maybe being the only one in that era capable of doing it. Of course, he went for the money, don't know why he needed it, he's always been noted as one of the financially successful boxers in history, god knows why he needed the money that bad that he'd get embarrassed, but maybe by that point he really didn't care anymore, he'd had a long career, been through some tough times at the end and the media or the boxing judges didn't always like him very much, maybe he just didn't give a fuck. There was a quote where someone showed him a picture of him on the canvas vs. tyson and Holmes replied "give me 3 million and I'll pose for another picture like that.".
 
stuff jones said:
Can't Tyson and Marciano both have underwhelming CVs? Very odd to keen on returning to this comparison.
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Marciano generally appears on most all time HW lists, thats why the comparison is made.
 
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