Crime Michigan LDS Church Shooting: Multiple Victims, Fire Reported

[Crazy Source]

Yeah, that's more old testament, crusade era Christians. Hopefully one day everyone can figure out how to just quietly practice their faith without forcing it on people

Forcing your morality/beliefs on people is one of the biggest perks of religion for many people. "Spreading the word" is inherent.

 

[Rob Battisti]

As far as I can tell they believe that Christ is one god in an infinite line of gods, all who were normal people and then became gods. “God” is different from Christ, Christ is a lesser god that came after he earned his God status on another planet. And regular Mormons can become gods and join this infinite line of gods just like Christ did.

…..there’s almost no one who would consider that Christianity lol

Also, all the Mormons I’ve met in real life have been great people.

Agreed on both counts.

You can’t be a Christian when essentially you believe you can become a god and that god was a man who became god

 

[Madmick]

well, to many mainstream Christians, let alone people off in the more niche protestant sects, Mormonism is heretical.

Some are pretty extreme on what to do about that sort of thing.

Who? Who is extreme about that sort of thing? What century is this?

I've encountered all sort of fanatical Christian ideas and hardliners in modern day America, but I've never ran into or read about anyone representing some extreme corner of Christianity espousing the preoccupation, "We gotta kill all these heretic Mormons." That's Middle Eastern shit. That's Muslim thinking. That's like the Iranians who have persecuted and murdered Bahai'is up to the present day because of their similarly weird ideas surrounding unique prophets and scriptures originating in the 19th century.

Persecution of Baháʼís - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's not like there aren't people who are that rigidly dogmatic and hateful, but the thing is, there's just so many more groups hanging lower on the tree. The Mormons are a distant concern. The pagans, the Zionists, the Muslims, the Hindus, the atheists, the apostates, the homosexuals, the adulterers, the fornicators...and so on and so forth. No time to get to the quiet, incredibly boring family up on the hill.

This guy wasn't hearing this shit at his local church. Not even one of those small-time, unaffiliated, non-denominational outfits with no formal clergy where you're more likely to find weird preachings. This wasn't something he was chatting about in some Christian Discord server. This wasn't something he was hearing on evangelical radio.

Whatever on the internet spun him out isn't any different than the shit you could find motivating people to despise Scientologists. That's exactly what the local politician who spoke to him a week before he did it said.

Michigan church shooting suspect went on anti-LDS tirade, political candidate said

Burton City Council candidate Kris Johns canvassed at Thomas Jacob Sanford's home less than a week before the Grand Blanc Township, Michigan, shooting.

www.freep.com

When Burton City Council candidate Kris Johns heard that someone shot churchgoers and burned down the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on Sept. 28 in nearby Grand Blanc, he said not once did he think it was the man he spoke to while canvassing less than a week prior who went on a tirade against the church and described Mormons as "the antichrist."

The man was outgoing, polite, and "extremely friendly," Johns said. And his animosity toward the church didn't seem violent, he said — “it was very much standard anti-LDS talking points that you would find on YouTube, TikTok, Facebook.”

 

[GreatSaintGuillotine]

Forcing your morality/beliefs on people is one of the biggest perks of religion for many people. "Spreading the word" is inherent.

It is probably one of the biggest reasons why I'm not religious

 

[Anung Un Rama]

Generally speaking I’ve always liked the Mormons I’ve ever met

Every single Mormon I've ever known has been one of the most genuinely kind people I've ever met.

 

[nhbbear]

they wouldn't have a choice. strict gun laws that cover the entirety of the united states would cripple weapons manufacturing and weapons sales. the majority of illegal guns are procured through straw purchases. straw purchases would cease to exist without a legal avenue to purchase those weapons.

There are over 400 million guns already in circulation. The only thing gun bans do is prevent law abiding citizens from owning them and will do nothing to curb the criminals from obtaining and using them. We need to enforce laws on the books, strengthen some of them, and hammer gun crimes and offenders. Due to progressive criminal justice, we have gotten too far away from punishing gun offenders. I have worked cases where criminals with very long criminal histories including violence, were convicted of murders and did less than 10 years. Felons with firearms do less than a year. In Philly, specifically, da larry krasner refuses to prosecute that crime solely because it nets too many minorities meanwhile he moans and cries over gun laws of other states and the nra for causing violence in his shitty city.

But but all means, let’s just get rid of the second amendment

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

There are over 400 million guns already in circulation. The only thing gun bans do is prevent law abiding citizens from owning them and will do nothing to curb the criminals from obtaining and using them. We need to enforce laws on the books, strengthen some of them, and hammer gun crimes and offenders. Due to progressive criminal justice, we have gotten too far away from punishing gun offenders. I have worked cases where criminals with very long criminal histories including violence, were convicted of murders and did less than 10 years. Felons with firearms do less than a year. In Philly, specifically, da larry krasner refuses to prosecute that crime solely because it nets too many minorities meanwhile he moans and cries over gun laws of other states and the nra for causing violence in his shitty city.

But but all means, let’s just get rid of the second amendment

i support the second amendment because sometimes, violent resistance is completely necessary for survival. i simply also know that gun control DOES work.

 

[nhbbear]

No one said we didnt have gun regulations. You made a poor argument that gun regulations are nonsensical because criminals dont follow laws, my argument was that's true of ANY laws. Arguing we shouldnt have regulations because criminals dont abide by them is absurd.

Crime is high in larger cities for numerous factors. You're misrepresenting criminal statistics. You KNOW the most dangerous States are NOT those States with those more strict gun laws. It's just convenient to use large cities and only introduce confounding variables on YOUR side of the argument, but not things like wealth inequality and fact that regardless of political affiliation AND race, the higher the wealth inequality in an area the greater the crime.

I don't buy for one second that crime went down on a National scale and rose again because ALL the criminals were doing 10-year sentences lol

Criminals will always do crime because they're criminals. That has nothing to do with the purpose of regulations. Alcohol regulations dont PREVENT drinking, they impose a civil or criminal penalty for irreaponsible drinking. Certain types of alcohol are illegal altogether. Guns can and should be approached exactly the same.

You’re missing several aspects of the difference between gun laws and alcohol laws. There’s no constitutional amendment that protects alcohol consumption like it does gun ownership. The 21st amendment ended alcohol prohibition, but it is not as sacred an amendment as the second amendment which is second only to free speech. As I said, there are regulations on the books and while some need strengthening, the enforcement of violations is what has been lax. Most of the violent crime is committed by juveniles and felons with firearms. Progressive district attorneys and judges choose not to enforce harsh sentences or even prosecution in case of Philly da larry krasner not prosecuting felons with firearms because he says it catches too many minorities. Meanwhile, he bitches and moans about other states and their gun laws and the NRA blaming both for the violence in his city. And anytime the argument comes up about red states vs blue states and violent crimes, it always occurs more in the bigger cities which are almost exclusively blue. Yes, there are multiple factors such as poverty, population density, and social and cultural factors that drive violent crime, but crime is a conscious decision to ignore codified laws and when violated, criminals should be held responsible-not released time after time and given a slap on the wrist.

 

[nhbbear]

i support the second amendment because sometimes, violent resistance is completely necessary for survival. i simply also know that gun control DOES work.

You can not support the second while calling for gun bans or restrictions.

 

[djacobox372]

i support the second amendment because sometimes, violent resistance is completely necessary for survival. i simply also know that gun control DOES work.

Thank you, finally someone with reason.

The question isn't if gun control works, there is plenty of evidence to show that it does, the question is that if the criminal use of guns is such a threat that it's worth taking on the risk of putting the power of violence solely in the hands of the government. I don't think it is, and doubt it ever will rise to that level.

 

[D 1 Wrestler]

I'm mid 30s and was apolitical a majority of my life. in 2016, I was a Trump supporter and my mother was a die hard one. This was around the time I met my wife as well. But I feel Trump/Trumpism is completely different than what it started out as, as well as we just know who Trump is more and more as the years go on. But I agree with everything you posted, and my wife is Ukranian, and talks mad shit about every point you brought up, lol. And I think a majority of Americans don't EVEN THINK about those points. They think working while drowning in debt IS the American dream. They don't realize how fucked all our food is, our portion sizes, what we put in everything, etc. I could talk about it forever but I don't want to go off topic.


BUT my main thinking on all of this is Trumpism is a main proponent along with unfettered capitalism, on why America is currently where it is at. Do you really think the extremely polar radicalized opposite political parties can be fixed at this point? There has to be a point beyond no return, and we have to be extremely close to it.

Just saw a report saying for the first time ever the current youth generation (not sure what gen they are called now) is the least happy of all gens.


Nm found it , Gen Z is least happy , typically it’s middle aged folks . Young people have nothing to look forward to. Can’t buy a house , can’t afford college , can’t save money

https://www.newsweek.com/gen-z-unhappier-boomers-were-same-age-new-study-2122871

 

[revoltub]

There are over 400 million guns already in circulation. The only thing gun bans do is prevent law abiding citizens from owning them and will do nothing to curb the criminals from obtaining and using them. We need to enforce laws on the books, strengthen some of them, and hammer gun crimes and offenders. Due to progressive criminal justice, we have gotten too far away from punishing gun offenders. I have worked cases where criminals with very long criminal histories including violence, were convicted of murders and did less than 10 years. Felons with firearms do less than a year. In Philly, specifically, da larry krasner refuses to prosecute that crime solely because it nets too many minorities meanwhile he moans and cries over gun laws of other states and the nra for causing violence in his shitty city.

But but all means, let’s just get rid of the second amendment.

Nobody ever addresses the 400 million guns problem.

 

[D 1 Wrestler]

You’re missing several aspects of the difference between gun laws and alcohol laws. There’s no constitutional amendment that protects alcohol consumption like it does gun ownership. The 21st amendment ended alcohol prohibition, but it is not as sacred an amendment as the second amendment which is second only to free speech. As I said, there are regulations on the books and while some need strengthening, the enforcement of violations is what has been lax. Most of the violent crime is committed by juveniles and felons with firearms. Progressive district attorneys and judges choose not to enforce harsh sentences or even prosecution in case of Philly da larry krasner not prosecuting felons with firearms because he says it catches too many minorities. Meanwhile, he bitches and moans about other states and their gun laws and the NRA blaming both for the violence in his city. And anytime the argument comes up about red states vs blue states and violent crimes, it always occurs more in the bigger cities which are almost exclusively blue. Yes, there are multiple factors such as poverty, population density, and social and cultural factors that drive violent crime, but crime is a conscious decision to ignore codified laws and when violated, criminals should be held responsible-not released time after time and given a slap on the wrist.

Just curious are there studies showing how much gun crime is done by repeat offenders against other criminals vs against innocent people and then how much gun crime is done against innocent people by formerly innocent people simply because they could easily access a gun (I.e. crimes of passion, road rage, disputes, etc)

 

[The_Renaissance]

Same here , I use to go play basketball at their church and they were always nice. I like how the "left" talks about how people fake being religious and fake Christians, how they are imposters and all that when it comes to the Christians, but keep that kind of talk to themselves, with Islam. LOL

Yep. The one untouchable religion. I spent most my adult life in North England. Huge Muslim communities. Loads of those lads professed to be Muslim but 99% of them were dealing and using drugs. Some were also drinking. All were succeeding at or attempting to womanise. They all spoke right (religion) but lived left (hedonism) on the quiet.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

You can not support the second while calling for gun bans or restrictions.

i wasn't calling for it. again, i simply said it would work.

 

[nhbbear]

Nobody ever addresses the 400 million guns problem.

Yeah, it seems excessive to me. But how do you regulate it and who decides how many guns a law abiding citizen can own? If you own a gun, you’re responsible for it and if it ends up in the hands of a criminal and you didn’t report it, you should possibly face charges. Sometimes straw purchasers like to report guns stolen over and over.

 

[nhbbear]

Just curious are there studies showing how much gun crime is done by repeat offenders against other criminals vs against innocent people and then how much gun crime is done against innocent people by formerly innocent people simply because they could easily access a gun (I.e. crimes of passion, road rage, disputes, etc)

There are stats that look at recidivists and their levels of violent crime. I don’t have those stats off the top of my head. As for innocent victims vs armed or people actively engaged in other criminal behavior, not sure about that one.

 

[syct23]

Yeah, it seems excessive to me. But how do you regulate it and who decides how many guns a law abiding citizen can own? If you own a gun, you’re responsible for it and if it ends up in the hands of a criminal and you didn’t report it, you should possibly face charges. Sometimes straw purchasers like to report guns stolen over and over.

Amend the Constitution with a subsection (a) to include a number of guns one person can own?

With another few subsections describing reasons allowing ownership of more guns needed.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

Nobody ever addresses the 400 million guns problem.

the "400 million gun problem" frankly isn't important. if legislation and buybacks got it to 300 million, it would still have a profound impact on gun crime.

 

[Cajun]

"Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints unequivocally affirm themselves to be Christians. They worship God the Eternal Father in the name of Jesus Christ. When asked what the Latter-day Saints believe, Joseph Smith put Christ at the center: “The fundamental principles of our religion is the testimony of the apostles and prophets concerning Jesus Christ, ‘that he died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended up into heaven;’ and all other things are only appendages to these, which pertain to our religion.”1 The modern-day Quorum of the Twelve Apostles reaffirmed that testimony when they proclaimed, “Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. … His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come.”2"

Are “Mormons” Christian?

Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World. We strive to follow Him as the way to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Their site also addresses some of the points you guys are trying to contend where they do the same thing Christians always do, cherry-picking the Bible to suit their argument.

It if walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, worships Jesus like a duck, it's a Christian duck.

Not Christianity imo. Jehovas Wittnesses either. Not believing Jesus IS God and eternal is foundational to Christianity. Not Satans brother. Christian denominations can worship together but you won't find any that would worship at a Mormon church. There are foundational things that must be in place. Muslims believe in jesus as a prophet. Doesn't make them christians. Not that it really matters in terms of the story. Just sayin