Social Mauna Kea Telescope Protests

[BarryDillon]

Lol not angry at all; you’re adorable. Still pretending to be black this week?

Don’t get it wrong, I’m a proud American who has sworn to uphold the Constitution. I love being an American. That doesn’t mean I can’t be critical of past practices. Just like while I certainly don’t condone protests that break the law, that doesn’t mean I can’t have empathy for the protesters who are legitimate Hawaiians who feel marginalized.

Welcome to the Progressive Horde.

Your t-shirt, and first installment of Soros' Bucks are in the mail.

 

[JamesRussler]

Lol not angry at all; you’re adorable. Still pretending to be black this week?

Don’t get it wrong, I’m a proud American who has sworn to uphold the Constitution. I love being an American. That doesn’t mean I can’t be critical of past practices. Just like while I certainly don’t condone protests that break the law, that doesn’t mean I can’t have empathy for the protesters who are legitimate Hawaiians who feel marginalized.

You're the one crying bout how those poor Hawaiians got wronged by those evil Whiteys. I just pointed out that those "Native" Hawaiians ain't so innocent. Fuck em, the telescope just got ten feet longer.

 

[JoeyJoeJoeJr]

I understand them being upset, but there is no such thing as "sacred land", its just land. No need to halt scientific progress because of "sacred land".

 

[killakoy]

I personally support the protestors. I could care less about whether a telescope gets built well actually I would want it built if the locals did not think the land is sacred but this is their land. I respect their commitment and willingness to go to jail.

I'm closer to this issue than most. This controversy about building a telescope isn't really about a telescope. It's an easy rallying point for a people that feel marginalized by lack of opportunity and a feeling of powerlessness that's existed since the overthrow.

However, they really chose the wrong battle. The telescope provides a high-tech sector for an economy sorely missing good paying jobs. The science that will be produced can only be achieved in this location. This is what Hawaii needs... and it wouldn't matter if it's the State of Hawaii, USA or Nation of Hawaii as some sovereignty fringes would prefer.

So, in short, I support the protestors first amendment rights to peacefully protest this project, but the governor gotta grow a pair and enforce the law to allow the project to continue.

 

[killakoy]

I agree with this in general for sure.

Having said that, what the US government did to native Hawaiian people is beyond disgusting. It was illegal to teach our language or practice our religion. As a Hawaiian hapa haole (part Hawaiian part white) and as a law enforcement officer this kind of issue is as tough as it gets for me. As a section commander I was asked to provide officers to this and I’ll just say that I did not.

As far as locals go though, they aren’t all unified on this. Hardly anyone practices traditional Hawaiian religion. However there are also environmental concerns. On the other hand there is already another large telescope, built and owned by the Japanese, on Mauna Kea among other telescopes there. There have been lots of protests against this and attempts to stop this before now, it’s been going on for like a decade.

I actually wrote a longer post originally, but for the sake of my career I think it’s best that this is all I share.

Just a further point. There are actually 12 telescopes on the summit region of Mauna Kea. 5x of them are larger than 8m class telescopes. I think you mentioned Subaru since that's the approximate size that TMT would be. Even though it's a lot larger mirror (30m), they've managed to drop the size of the dome considerably to try to minimize the visual impact.

Also of note, the location is 13 North which is approximately 800' below the true summit. The location was chosen as a concession to minimize impact.

 

[Jesus H. Sherdog]

I'm closer to this issue than most. This controversy about building a telescope isn't really about a telescope. It's an easy rallying point for a people that feel marginalized by lack of opportunity and a feeling of powerlessness that's existed since the overthrow.

However, they really chose the wrong battle. The telescope provides a high-tech sector for an economy sorely missing good paying jobs. The science that will be produced can only be achieved in this location. This is what Hawaii needs... and it wouldn't matter if it's the State of Hawaii, USA or Nation of Hawaii as some sovereignty fringes would prefer.

So, in short, I support the protestors first amendment rights to peacefully protest this project, but the governor gotta grow a pair and enforce the law to allow the project to continue.

Well said.

 

[Fawlty]

I don't really get why another telescope at this point is a problem. I could understand if we were talking about an eyesore on a pristine mountain- something absolutely hideous and destructive like Mt. Rushmore. This mountain is already full of telescopes.

 

[killakoy]

I don't really get why another telescope at this point is a problem. I could understand if we were talking about an eyesore on a pristine mountain- something absolutely hideous and destructive like Mt. Rushmore. This mountain is already full of telescopes.

Many things are different now compared to when the rest of the telescopes went up.

1) In the 80's and 90's Hawaiians went through a cultural renaissance so to speak. Before the 80's there was actually a sense of shame to being Hawaiian associated with bad stereotyping and being known for not having anything. This changed with music, a rebirth of the language, an introduction to Hawaiian culture being taught at the University level, and then charter immersion schools dedicated to Hawaiian education. This resulted in a resurgence of culture and pride.

2) The advent of internet and social media. This offered instantaneous access to masses. Propagation of information (even false information), made it easy to touch a lot of people and stir emotion.

3) When the other telescopes went up there were a few powerful elder community leaders, kupuna, who were really instrumental in communities. By approaching them and getting them on board with the project was a sure-fire way to get something done. When people found out that certain kupuna were on-board, no one would want to oppose their thinking. Sort of "Who are you. You think you know more than Kupuna xxxx."

4) Now that kupuna generation is gone. There's a lot more leaders and beacons within the community are far and few in-between.

End result is a lot of opposition when before it was only a handful of diehard activists.

 

[Fawlty]

Many things are different now compared to when the rest of the telescopes went up.

1) In the 80's and 90's Hawaiians went through a cultural renaissance so to speak. Before the 80's there was actually a sense of shame to being Hawaiian associated with bad stereotyping and being known for not having anything. This changed with music, a rebirth of the language, an introduction to Hawaiian culture being taught at the University level, and than charter immersion schools dedicated to Hawaiian education. This resulted in a resurgence of culture and pride.

2) The advent of internet and social media. This offered instantaneous access to masses. Propagation of information (even false information), made it easy to touch a lot of people and stir emotion.

3) When the other telescopes went up there were a few powerful elder community leaders, kupuna, who were really instrumental in communities. By approaching them and getting them on board with the project was a sure-fire way to get something done. When people found out that certain kupuna were on-board, no one would want to oppose their thinking. Sort of "Who are you. You think you know more than Kupuna xxxx."

4) Now that kupuna generation is gone. There's a lot more leaders and beacon's within the community are far and few in-between.

End result is a lot of opposition when before it was only a handful of diehard activists.

I had no idea about that stuff, interesting. Thanks.

 

[esant707]

I drove past the protestors on the side of the road two days ago. They seemed fairly peaceful at the time. I probably lean towards the telescope being built but it's not my land/religion so I can't say.

 

[HomeCheese]

Most people around town don't seem to care that much. The only ones I had heard expressing strong support for the protests are middle age white women that moved here from the mainland. I would like to see it get built but I certainly understand the locals frustration.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

*couldn't care less.

"I could care less" means precisely the opposite of what you mean to say.

Now then, fuck the protesters, their silly superstitions are getting in the way of adding to human knowledge, to nobody's benefit.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Many things are different now compared to when the rest of the telescopes went up.

1) In the 80's and 90's Hawaiians went through a cultural renaissance so to speak. Before the 80's there was actually a sense of shame to being Hawaiian associated with bad stereotyping and being known for not having anything. This changed with music, a rebirth of the language, an introduction to Hawaiian culture being taught at the University level, and then charter immersion schools dedicated to Hawaiian education. This resulted in a resurgence of culture and pride.

2) The advent of internet and social media. This offered instantaneous access to masses. Propagation of information (even false information), made it easy to touch a lot of people and stir emotion.

3) When the other telescopes went up there were a few powerful elder community leaders, kupuna, who were really instrumental in communities. By approaching them and getting them on board with the project was a sure-fire way to get something done. When people found out that certain kupuna were on-board, no one would want to oppose their thinking. Sort of "Who are you. You think you know more than Kupuna xxxx."

4) Now that kupuna generation is gone. There's a lot more leaders and beacons within the community are far and few in-between.

End result is a lot of opposition when before it was only a handful of diehard activists.

This is one reason I come to this place, for diverse perspectives from around the world. I know that's a hackneyed statement but here its true.

Can you tell me more about these kupunas? Who are they exactly and why did they disappear? As in, why weren't they replaced? Is it an informal position or what?

 

[BassAckwards]

the protestors are just looking for some reason to complain and get some TV time. they literally have nothing else better to do, so they go up there and think they are making a difference

 

[BassAckwards]

duplicate post

 

[Arqueto]

Telescopes are for nerds, microscopes are for the playas

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

Came in looking for ignorance, intolerance and and general stupidity.

Warroom not surprising.

 

[Jesus H. Sherdog]

This is one reason I come to this place, for diverse perspectives from around the world. I know that's a hackneyed statement but here its true.

Can you tell me more about these kupunas? Who are they exactly and why did they disappear? As in, why weren't they replaced? Is it an informal position or what?

A kupuna is just an honored elder. It isn’t really a position per se. So of course there are still kupuna. We all refer to our grandparents or elder parents as kupuna.

But he’s referring to how in the past the elder community leaders were less likely to want to protest things like this and the majority would accept their position as the position to take.

Like I said in my post, people now are really divided on this, it’s not like everyone is for the protests, but some are. The thing is that there isn’t unification among the more distinguished kupuna like in the past. Now some are judges who look to uphold the law, others are professors and activists. It’s been that way for a while now. I’ll accept any rebuttals to this from @killakoy as he’s better at explaining this than I am.

 

[Joe265]

Really?!?!? I can name about a half dozen better looking mountains off the top of my head.

Mauna Kea is just a big bulging desolate looking Shield Volcano. Dirt brown with no interesting features.

Joe Rogan said multiple times the view from Mauna Kea with the naked eye was a life changing experience, and almost seems like you are one with the sky. Really made me want to visit one day. Plus there is already an observatory there. And let’s not get started on the the always unaccountable tax dollars being used to fund this stuff and countless others.

 

[Joe265]

I understand them being upset, but there is no such thing as "sacred land", its just land. No need to halt scientific progress because of "sacred land".

You’ve clearly never seen the view from Mauna Kea. The terminology is completely irrelevant. The point is that it should be protected land no different than Sequoia National Park, for example.