Masked Swedes beating up refugees in sthlm

[Thames]

Lol Sodapopinski. You're not really able to grasp the issue here, or able to comprehend my posts. I don't see anything productive coming out of this discourse.

I made an agreement with glennrod once to stop responding to each other. Perhaps we should also agree to that?

I think people are more sympathetic to an act of retaliation, even if misguided, than they are to the group that struck the first blow. Both groups are in the wrong, obviously, but I can understand the motives of Swedes who are fighting against random Muslims more than I can understand Muslims that rape random women. They obviously feel that they are not being heard, and take action in this primitive way. It's the classic approach of waging war against the group that you see as a threat. That doesn't make it right, but it's certainly not perplexing.

I'd say there is racism on both sides. You don't see Muslims raping and attacking other Muslims, and you don't see Swedes (or Germans) attacking other Europeans. That should be obvious. If anything it should be definitive proof that there is a culture clash.

I happen to disagree with the people that say that "Islam is not a race", at least in principle. It's a stance I took when I argued that Charlie Hebdo promoted racist ideas, and it certainly does. With that said, in times of war, racism is standard protocol. See Japanese internment camps. We are living in a bizarre time when we invite in the very same people we are at war with, and even stranger, imply that it's racist to vet these individuals.

That is not what this is though. This was just neo-nazis beating up anyone who looked foreign under the guise of retaliation. Both rape and assault should be condemned, I don't understand any of them.

A lot of Swedes are getting increasingly frustrated at their politicians in denial and corrupt media. But this particular group are part of the extreme right, no one should pander to their concerns, in particular when they resort to senseless violence. Even though it's classic, doesn't mean it shouldn't be condemned.

When I talk about the increasing right wing and their monopoy on solutions, I'm talking about the Sweden Democrats, Danish Peoples Party, Front Nationale etc. Legitimate democractic political parties. They are mostly on the rise because of so called "protest votes". That should be taken seriously, and so far it has not been in Sweden, who have been very undemocratic in their handling of the increasing right wing, along with the media. In effect completely dismissing the voice of around 15% of the voters (recent polls at 25%, which makes them by far the biggest party).
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sweden-politics-farright-idUSKBN0K80XS20141230

Yeah, in the current debate climate Islam is attached to a specific race. There is a big difference in theological discussions about Islam and the current muslim bashing (who is only targeting africans and middle eastern people).

 

[dontsnitch]

I'm not in the business of making value judgments on people who criticize an ideology with the assumption they're really just racists.

I hope you understand that I have not done that.

I've heard Christianity bashed constantly by atheists, but not once have I ever heard anyone suggest the atheists were racist. Because a religion is not a race. There might be some confusion with Judaism, but not with Islam.

Judaism is a great example, actually. Imagine drawing a caricature of a "typical" Jewish man with the classic derogatory characteristics and claiming that it is an attack on Judaism. It is veiled racism.

Again, this is not an attack on your position, as I don't believe you are being racist. It's a criticism on the absolute stance that says that you cannot attack Islam while being racist. It just so happens that a large majority of Muslims share a similar race and colour.

 

[IDL]

Islam is not a race, that much is true. It doesn't mean that one can't be racist in the guise of attacking Islam. It's a strategy that has been employed, most meaningfully done by Charlie Hebdo and it's proponents, which is the place I initially took issue with.

That's not to say that you are racist, or that your arguments are racist. It's not meant as a presupposition of your position, but I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't be so quick to call this an absolute. It's more fitting if you just affirm it for yourself, which I believe you have done, and it's why I don't take issue with you espousing that position.

The amount of energy trying to pin people with the racist label and then people arguing about it creates a paralysis in terms of problem solving and rationality.

The dysfunction is painful to watch. Pretty sure this paralysis applies to Westerners more than any because of the PC programming and pavlovian triggers.

 

[dontsnitch]

That is not what this is though. This was just neo-nazis beating up anyone who looked foreign under the guise of retaliation. Both rape and assault should be condemned, I don't understand any of them.

I have not actually investigated this specific case in detail. If you can prove that this is just neo-nazis taking advantage of the current situation to attack people, then I will concede, but I think you are making an assumption here.

A lot of Swedes are getting increasingly frustrated at their politicians in denial and corrupt media. But this particular group are part of the extreme right, no one should pander to their concerns, in particular when they resort to senseless violence. Even though it's classic, doesn't mean it shouldn't be condemned.

When I talk about the increasing right wing and their monopoy on solutions, I'm talking about the Sweden Democrats, Danish Peoples Party, Front Nationale etc. Legitimate democractic political parties. They are mostly on the rise because of so called "protest votes". That should be taken seriously, and so far it has not been in Sweden, who have been very undemocratic in their handling of the increasing right wing, along with the media. In effect completely dismissing the voice of around 15% of the voters (recent polls at 20%).

Yeah, in the current debate climate Islam is attached to a specific race. There is a big difference in theological discussions about Islam and the current muslim bashing (who is only targeting africans and middle eastern people).

I'm hesitant to objectively say it should be condemned, even if I disagree with them. War should be condemned. The US should be condemned for their foreign policy. ISIS should be condemned for their brutality. We condemn the lot of it, but it's what people do to get their way. Given that war already exists, I think there is room for nuance. When the US attacked Pearl Harbour, was it fair that innocent people died? Well, no, but we understand the message it sends.

So should you attack random people on the street? Well no, but as I said, I can understand a retaliation to unprovoked assaults in order to push an agenda, if indeed this is a retaliation, and not like you said, an excuse for violence against brown people.

 

[Deleted member 457759]

The amount of energy trying to pin people with the racist label and then people arguing about it creates a paralysis in terms of problem solving and rationality.

The dysfunction is painful to watch. Pretty sure this paralysis applies to Westerners more than any because of the PC programming and pavlovian triggers.

I strongly identify with this thinking. It's just not good. And from what I can see the racist accusation has almost exclusively become a left wing tactic to silence dissent than any real tangible presence of racism.

 

[dontsnitch]

The amount of energy trying to pin people with the racist label and then people arguing about it creates a paralysis in terms of problem solving and rationality.

The dysfunction is painful to watch. Pretty sure this paralysis applies to Westerners more than any because of the PC programming and pavlovian triggers.

I like discussing this through a philosophical perspective just for fun, as I don't have an agenda, nor am I trying to imply that any poster is racist. If I believed it I would say it.

Given that I am more inclined to agree with the Right in this debate, it doesn't make sense for me to argue that being anti-immigration is racist, it hurts my position. I just like being objective. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

 

[ironwolf]

It is an ethnicity....

Nope, it's a religion.

 

[dontsnitch]

Yes it is.

Others may be implying Soda is racist, but it is not my intent. If I believed he was racist I would say so directly. My position was philosophical. As I said, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I enjoy the discussion.

I forget that some of these topics are charged, and sometimes I just charge forward without taking that into account.

 

[Gutter Chris]

The amount of energy trying to pin people with the racist label and then people arguing about it creates a paralysis in terms of problem solving and rationality.

The dysfunction is painful to watch. Pretty sure this paralysis applies to Westerners more than any because of the PC programming and pavlovian triggers.

Again I almost 100 percent I agree with you. I think where we differ is that you think this wasdone on purpose and planned and I think its an accidental byproduct of that no ones feelings can be hurt everyone gets a trophy culture that we have created for ourselves.

Either way I guess it amounts to the same thing. Rego folks tying themselves into knots trying to hurt no ones feelings while also being really confused by what there own eyes are telling them . Not everything is equal in terms of morals and values.

 

[Thames]

I have not actually investigated this specific case in detail. If you can prove that this is just neo-nazis taking advantage of the current situation to attack people, then I will concede, but I think you are making an assumption here.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...t-refugee-children-in-stockholm-a6843451.html

After the attack, the Swedish Resistance Movement, a neo-Nazi group, released a statement claiming the attack had "cleaned up criminal immigrants from North Africa that are housed in the area around the Central Station".

I'm hesitant to objectively say it should be condemned, even if I disagree with them. War should be condemned. The US should be condemned for their foreign policy. ISIS should be condemned for their brutality. We condemn the lot of it, but it's what people do to get their way. Given that war already exists, I think there is room for nuance. When the US attacked Pearl Harbour, was it fair that innocent people died? Well, no, but we understand the message it sends.

So should you attack random people on the street? Well no, but as I said, I can understand a retaliation to unprovoked assaults in order to push an agenda, if indeed this is a retaliation, and not like you said, an excuse for violence against brown people.

I don't really understand your point here. You think we should give them a pass because we can understand their motives? That's not how you build a nation based on the rule of law.

Also:

When the US attacked Pearl Harbour, was it fair that innocent people died? Well, no, but we understand the message it sends.

When the US nuked Japan you mean?

Completely different cirumstances, scale and motives involved. Not comparable at all. But I think a lot of war acts can be objectively condemned. Some are horrible, but are a means to a strategic end. Like the nukes arguable were.

On the other hand, the fire bombing of Tokyo is objectively condemnable imo. But that's going off topic.

 

[lfd0311]

Nope, it's a religion.

Which in some cases, like Islam, can be an ethnicity

 

[IDL]

Again I almost 100 percent I agree with you. I think where we differ is that you think this wasdone on purpose and planned and I think its an accidental byproduct of that no ones feelings can be hurt everyone gets a trophy culture that we have created for ourselves.

Either way I guess it amounts to the same thing. Rego folks tying themselves into knots trying to hurt no ones feelings while also being really confused by what there own eyes are telling them . Not everything is equal in terms of morals and values.

I know it is designed scientifically, very deliberate. It's in line with the deployment of Cultural Marxism.

But yeah, the end result in terms of symptoms is readily visible. Dysfunction.

 

[Gutter Chris]

I know it is designed scientifically, very deliberate. It's in line with the deployment of Cultural Marxism.

So that I can further understand can you explain that to me a bit. Dont youtube me just write it out if you can Im better able to digest info that way.....

Not being an ass either I really do just want to further understand what you mean

 

[dontsnitch]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...t-refugee-children-in-stockholm-a6843451.html

I don't really understand your point here. You think we should give them a pass because we can understand their motives? That's not how you build a nation based on the rule of law.

Also:

When the US nuked Japan you mean?

Completely different cirumstances, scale and motives involved. Not comparable at all. But I think a lot of war acts can be objectively condemned. Some are horrible, but are a means to a strategic end. Like the nukes arguable were.

On the other hand, the fire bombing of Tokyo is objectively condemnable imo. But that's going off topic.

I'll check out the link.

I'm starting to feel like Sam Harris debating Chomsky here. Not a position I envy, but I'm going to stick with my philosophical approach. Humour me with the Pearl Harbour example for a minute. If the scale was smaller, would you then say it's comparable?

The fact that it's a means to and end that involves hurting innocent people is the entire point. Yes, it's condemnable, but you understand the point. Raping women of the country you were just invited into has no rhyme or reason. Both are condemnable, but that's not the entire point, which is why I said war in condemnable. It's true, but it's not that poignant.

This is, of course, assuming that the retaliations were actual retaliations, and not something else, as you've argued.

 

[IDL]

So that I can further understand can you explain that to me a bit. Dont youtube me just write it out if you can Im better able to digest info that way.....

Not being an ass either I really do just want to further understand what you mean

In terms of cultural Marxism or how PC is conditioned into the masses using scientific techniques?

If it's the latter, it's done largely through mass media (and the education system to a lesser degree, especially Marxist based university programs) which is much more manipulating than people realize. Through Classical Conditioning which is partly built on Pavlovs experiments.

It's about associating sounds (words) and even thoughts to something traumatic thus triggering an emotional response. It bypasses the logic circuits of the brain and often people won't really understand why they become triggered because it's planted in the subconscious mind. Over time, a mine field of triggers can be planted disrupting rational thought.

It's largely trained into people by action/reaction. When people are watching TV they are often being 'updated' with the latest PC programming without even knowing it. It can be delivered through things like situational comedy, or through news stories (major reactions to seemingly minor things), or anything really. This is training. Repetition is key.

 

[Gutter Chris]

In terms of cultural Marxism or how PC is conditioned into the masses using scientific techniques?

If it's the latter, it's done largely through mass media (and the education system to a lesser degree, especially Marxist based university programs) which is much more manipulating than people realize. Through Classical Conditioning which is partly built on Pavlovs experiments.

It's about associating sounds and even thoughts to something traumatic thus triggering an emotional response. It bypasses the logic circuits of the brain and often people won't really understand why they become triggered because it's planted in the subconscious mind.

It's largely trained into people by action/reaction. When people are watching TV they are often being 'updated' with the latest PC programming without even knowing it. It can be delivered through things like situational comedy, or through news stories (major reactions to seemingly minor things). This is training. Repetition is key.

Its the why and who that I am having a hard time. I dont disagree that media gives us the latest pc script . Its just that I think the be nice no hurt feeling culture that we all took on so as no one gets offended and business doesnt get boycotted is the cause not some shadow group setting an agenda.

 

[in the]

I hope you understand that I have not done that.



Judaism is a great example, actually. Imagine drawing a caricature of a "typical" Jewish man with the classic derogatory characteristics and claiming that it is an attack on Judaism. It is veiled racism.

Again, this is not an attack on your position, as I don't believe you are being racist. It's a criticism on the absolute stance that says that you cannot attack Islam while being racist. It just so happens that a large majority of Muslims share a similar race and colour.

Just to get this out of the way - I didn't get the "you're a racist" vibe from you, never have, so don't worry.

There are ethnic Jews. There are not ethnic Muslims, or Christians, or Hindus, or Buddhists. Jews are in a category of their own when it comes to a conflation of race and religion. Judaism is the exception to the rule, meaning it cannot be compared properly to the other religions. Therefore, Islam is in no way, shape, or form a race, close to being a race, or even an ethnicity. Islam, like all other religions sans Judaism, is an ideology and not a race.

Lol Sodapopinski. You're not really able to grasp the issue here, or able to comprehend my posts. I don't see anything productive coming out of this discourse.

I made an agreement with glennrod once to stop responding to each other. Perhaps we should also agree to that?

I actually like engaging in dialogue. That's how people learn. I'm not going to make a deal to not reply to anyone, sorry. If you don't want to reply to me, that's fine. It's your choice. But I'm going to comment on ideas if I feel I should, or even want to. It's nothing personal. I don't hate you or anyone else on this site personally (even Leklok), even if I despise your ideologies.

 

[IDL]

Its the why and who that I am having a hard time. I dont disagree that media gives us the latest pc script . Its just that I think the be nice no hurt feeling culture that we all took on so as no one gets offended and business doesnt get boycotted is the cause not some shadow group setting an agenda.

That goes back to Cultural Marxism. It's not just about being nice and not hurting feelings. There is a deliberate structure to what is and isn't offensive, including double standards. The structure is designed to assists in the overthrowing of the existing social order. In the feminist sphere they call it 'patriarchy' and other identity studies classes they will call it 'white supremacy' (which in practice is all white people, since they are the majority demographic). All this is is a port from classic Marxism into the cultural sphere, so it promotes the idea of 'cultural struggle against oppression' in order to create activists and it points them at the intended target. The proletariat and bourgeois are just swapped out. It's not personal, it's business.

So the exact same techniques could be applied to any society in order to overthrow it.

Obviously this requires a great deal of resources which is why it becomes obvious that those in power are doing it. The central banking cartel and Oligarchy are the ones with that power, and also have the motive because it leads to a more totalitarian system with them gaining more power.

 

[Gervinho]

Reading this thread I can really understand how the hatred for the Jews built up in the 30s.....bit by bit you guys are getting more and more extreme. But you are not dealing with few millions Jews here. If you think you can get away with another try on ethnic cleansing, you are in for a surprise. My dad always said son when the economy hit the fan, keep away from white people and he was right

 

[dontsnitch]

Just to get this out of the way - I didn't get the "you're a racist" vibe from you, never have, so don't worry.

There are ethnic Jews. There are not ethnic Muslims, or Christians, or Hindus, or Buddhists. Jews are in a category of their own when it comes to a conflation of race and religion. Judaism is the exception to the rule, meaning it cannot be compared properly to the other religions. Therefore, Islam is in no way, shape, or form a race, close to being a race, or even an ethnicity. Islam, like all other religions sans Judaism, is an ideology and not a race.

We don't have to agree here, there's no sense in us going back and forth. I agree with you, I just believe there are exceptions. Not in this thread, to my knowledge, but they exist.

Tell me about this incident in particular. What are your general thoughts on these attacks? Should we not condemn them?