maltodextrin question

[ninjajesus]

For my weight I'm supposed to consume 150 grams of carbs after a workout. That's a lot of maltodextrin. It's 1 and a half cups. That's a lot of shit to put in a drink. If I did that, I'd use up this 2 pound container in 6 drinks. I just bought it. Do I really need that much? 1 and a half cups of sugar is a lot to just pour down your throat. I probably won't even taste the chocolate from my protein if I used that much.

PS, this stuff is messy too. Just scooping it, it poofs up out of the container since it's so fine and dry. And if it touches anything that has at least 1 molecule of water on it, it becomes the stickiest substance known to man.

 

[theNuge]

I hear where you're coming from. I'm supposed to take a ridiculous amount of crap after my workouts too and I can't get myself to do it. I've tried it and I can't tell that much difference from when I only take two scoops or approximately 60 grams of protein and carbs. One of the other reasons I do this is because I don't have the money to replace my PWO drink that often.

However, about a half hour after I take my PWO shake I do eat quite a bit as well. This gets me the extra carbs and protein and I save a little money.

 

[joshetc]

You weigh over 410lbs? The general rule is 0.8g/kg of carbs post-workout. You would need to weigh ~412lbs to require that much.

 

[Gavin LeFever]

The general rule is 0.8g/kg of carbs post-workout.

From where are you sourcing this?


I only do a during-workout (DWO) shake, and whatever I didn't finish goes for PWO before my PWO meal. I do get a little mixed up though.

For my DWO, I just do: (from a Berardi article on basic peri-WO nutrition)

15g protein
15g dextrose
15g maltodextrin
..multiply by the # of hours working out

and add my creatine/BA for the day (half before, half during).

Do I need to be taking a true PWO after or does my DWO cover all this, plus my PWO meal?

 

[joshetc]

From where are you sourcing this?


I only do a during-workout (DWO) shake, and whatever I didn't finish goes for PWO before my PWO meal. I do get a little mixed up though.

For my DWO, I just do: (from a Berardi article on basic peri-WO nutrition)

15g protein
15g dextrose
15g maltodextrin
..multiply by the # of hours working out

and add my creatine/BA for the day (half before, half during).

Do I need to be taking a true PWO after or does my DWO cover all this, plus my PWO meal?

Sorry, I should of been more specific. For PWO shakes that require carbs and protein (optimum insulin spike for optimum protein uptake) the rule of thumb is 0.8g/kg. I've seen it in a few articals regarding such shakes, but don't have them on-hand. I believe MM referenced the same rule a couple days ago in a thread, too. I'll look for it.

Also, that is exactly what I do peri-workout.

edit: http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showpost.php?p=21502747&postcount=15

edit2: Even better, Berardi discusses carbs and protein post workout. His conclusion is ~0.8g/kg of carbs and ~0.4g/kg of protein post workout. http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/importance.htm He begins discussing it in the "Feeding hungry muscles" section.

 

[ninjajesus]

You weigh over 410lbs? The general rule is 0.8g/kg of carbs post-workout. You would need to weigh ~412lbs to require that much.

Oh, well that makes more sense. I need 68 grams of carbs based on that. Which to me is still a lot, but it's not ridiculous. I got the other calculation from another website, I just tried to find it and couldn't. I thought it was Berardi's website but I could be wrong.

 

[Ian Coe]

I was going to say 150g of carbs in a drink is A LOT

 

[T_Money_]

You weigh over 410lbs? The general rule is 0.8g/kg of carbs post-workout. You would need to weigh ~412lbs to require that much.

Good job on the math. There was no way 150g was right. Hell 150 cals from sugar would be a pretty decent amount.

 

[joshetc]

Oh, well that makes more sense. I need 68 grams of carbs based on that. Which to me is still a lot, but it's not ridiculous. I got the other calculation from another website, I just tried to find it and couldn't. I thought it was Berardi's website but I could be wrong.

That sounds much better, I use about 60g of carbs and 30g of protein in my post workout shakes. It takes about 12oz of water to mix it according to my taste, which takes like 10 seconds to guzzle down.

 

[ninjajesus]

Ah here we go. This is the website I got it from. Different website than I thought. I did a Google search to find it.
I think I'm the one who got it wrong. I think I was supposed to divide something. But what's the use of a calculator if I have to do calculating manually?

edit: or maybe there is no extra calculating. His example of 10lb of body fat and 145 pound weight gives him 122 grams of carbs he needs to consume after a workout.

Anyway, here's the link.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/pierce2.htm

 

[joshetc]

Some people use different formulas for different reasons. I would probably trust Berardi on this one, did you read the artical I posted? He goes into pretty good detail. The whole artical is actually quite good.

 

[Monger]

Berardi has changed his protocol over the years as the sports supplementation industry has evolved with research. I read an interview of John Berardi a month or so back and he stated that for recovery, he has his athletes (even professional elite athletes) just consume the formula that Fight_Song quoted during training, 30g carbs/15g protein for every hour of training to be consumed throughout the training period. PWO is simply a normal whole food meal with lean protein and a rational amount of carbs within an hour or two after training.

For the guys looking to gain a considerable amount of weight, Berardi uses the above protocol and then applies the .8g carbs/.4g protein per KG of BW rule PWO in another shake. That's ~70 carbs PWO for a ~200lb. dude, but this is only if considerable weight gain is desired.

 

[joshetc]

Berardi has changed his protocol over the years as the sports supplementation industry has evolved with research. I read an interview of John Berardi a month or so back and he stated that for recovery, he has his athletes (even professional elite athletes) just consume the formula that Fight_Song quoted during training, 30g carbs/15g protein for every hour of training to be consumed throughout the training period. PWO is simply a normal whole food meal with lean protein and a rational amount of carbs within an hour or two after training.

For the guys looking to gain a considerable amount of weight, Berardi uses the above protocol and then applies the .8g carbs/.4g protein per KG of BW rule PWO in another shake. That's ~70 carbs PWO for a ~200lb. dude, but this is only if considerable weight gain is desired.

Hmm. I've been doing both, 4:1 carbsrotein peri workout (~40g carbs for an hour, and 10g carbs) As well as 2:1 carbsrotein following the 0.8/0.4g/kg rule post workout. Its worked pretty well for weight gain, but I'm only getting about 3k cal a day including my workout drinks. (about 2400-2500 cal on non-workout days) I should probably start eating more...

edit: Btw I have to kind of disagree with berardi as far as post workout nutrition goes, then. His old theory was much more sound. Most of us arent able to eat for at least an hour or two after a workout, but have no problems slamming down a 450 cal shake before our sweat has even had time to dry out. I think if it is feasable to get a whole meal so soon, its a great idea. Personally, I spend about an hour in the gym after I workout, before I go home. (5 mins steam room, 15 minutes sauna, 15 minutes hot tub, rest shower / changing)

edit2: I just realized I kind of contradicted my previous post, with my first edit. I don't fully disagree with him, though. I just think it is more important to get your post workout nutrition quickly, even at the expense of slightly superior nutrition.

 

[Monger]

I don't think it has anything to do with his first protocol being more sound. His first protocol was based on not consuming ANY nutrition during or directly prior to training. At that time, PWO drinks were the shit because that's what was studied and it worked... especially compared to not doing anything. In the following years, studies were done using WO nutrition prior to training... at that point, Berardi started advocating splitting his shake up and drinking half preWO and half PWO. With the addition of more research it appears that taking WO nutrition during training kicks even more ass. When you think about it, if you've been consuming carbs and protein throughout your training, where's the big need to take a huge PWO shake? You're blood is already high in glucose and aminos when the WO is ended. Granted, those looking to seriously gain weight can probably benefit from more carbs and more calories.

Currently, I just use a during WO drink. I use roughly 40g carbs and 20g protein. I usually have about 1/4 left by the time my WO is finished and I just slam it. This is a LOT different that previous protocols I've followed. To be honest, I don't notice a difference in terms of recovery compared to the other, more radical, protocols that I've used. I do try to eat a WF meal afterwards but by the time I get home from the gym and prepare dinner it's probably 1.5 hours PWO.

One thing to note is that I'm not trying to gain weight. I'm doing way to much conditioning crap right now. Muscle preservation and recovery is all I'm concerned with. My current protocol seems to get the job done. Of course, different people may respond better to other methods.

 

[joshetc]

I don't think it has anything to do with his first protocol being more sound. His first protocol was based on not consuming ANY nutrition during or directly prior to training. At that time, PWO drinks were the shit because that's what was studied and it worked... especially compared to not doing anything. In the following years, studies were done using WO nutrition prior to training... at that point, Berardi started advocating splitting his shake up and drinking half preWO and half PWO. With the addition of more research it appears that taking WO nutrition during training kicks even more ass. When you think about it, if you've been consuming carbs and protein throughout your training, where's the big need to take a huge PWO shake? You're blood is already high in glucose and aminos when the WO is ended. Granted, those looking to seriously gain weight can probably benefit from more carbs and more calories.

Currently, I just use a during WO drink. I use roughly 40g carbs and 20g protein. I usually have about 1/4 left by the time my WO is finished and I just slam it. This is a LOT different that previous protocols I've followed. To be honest, I don't notice a difference in terms of recovery compared to the other, more radical, protocols that I've used. I do try to eat a WF meal afterwards but by the time I get home from the gym and prepare dinner it's probably 1.5 hours PWO.

One thing to note is that I'm not trying to gain weight. I'm doing way to much conditioning crap right now. Muscle preservation and recovery is all I'm concerned with. My current protocol seems to get the job done. Of course, different people may respond better to other methods.

Yeh, I think it does depend a lot on the person. I just figure during my workout, even 20g of protein isn't really a lot. My workouts are also never much longer than an hour, so I'd be in the 40g carbs / 20g protein boat as well. I figured with the peri workout drink of 40g of carbs, an additional ~60g of carbs was overkill. I think if one assumed there will be an "extra hour" and make a shake for two hours instead of one (~60g carbs and 30g protein) and work on it during your workout and finish it after your workout, you'd see the best results in terms of effiency.

Then again, I'm in a whole different boat, really. The more calories the better.

 

[Monger]

Then again, I'm in a whole different boat, really. The more calories the better.

Yes, I think that makes a big difference. Getting extra calories from shakes is very easy and there's no better time to do that then PWO, especially with adding a lot of carbs. As far as 20g of protein not being enough... I'm not so sure about that. A lot of nutritionally sound guys that are into training will be consuming moderate to high amounts of protein every 2-4 hours. Considering that proteins such as meat and caseins can last for over 4 hours in your blood stream, chances are that you'll have more aminos available periWO than you think. In the end, total daily nutrition really plays the biggest role.

 

[joshetc]

Yes, I think that makes a big difference. Getting extra calories from shakes is very easy and there's no better time to do that then PWO, especially with adding a lot of carbs. As far as 20g of protein not being enough... I'm not so sure about that. A lot of nutritionally sound guys that are into training will be consuming moderate to high amounts of protein every 2-4 hours. Considering that proteins such as meat and caseins can last for over 4 hours in your blood stream, chances are that you'll have more aminos available periWO than you think. In the end, total daily nutrition really plays the biggest role.

I agree. That is one thing I really have to work on. My meals are usually protein lacking earlier in the day. I have an awkward stomach, so I have a real hard time drinking/eating milk or eggs earlier in the day. I'm gonna buy some milk protein isolate to mix with my greens+. My best workouts are always when I go to japanese steakhouse about an hour and a half before the gym, otherwise the only meal I've had pre-workout is breakfast.

 

[Mojorisin99]

Does consuming a shake while working out improve performance or is just for recovery?

 

[joshetc]

Does consuming a shake while working out improve performance or is just for recovery?

Its supposed to do both. That is the whole basis behind accelerade. It is supposed to increase endurance by up to 29% by changing the conventional sports drink mixture to a mixture of 20% protein and 80% carbohydrates.

 

[ninjajesus]

I put 2 scoops of protein in my drink and 1 scoop of dextrin. Am I putting too much protein? It's a total of 52 grams of protein. Should I use the opposite? 2 scoops of dextrin and 1 scoop of protein?