Social MAGA 2025 Civil war incoming! Vivek Ramaswamy Betrays Base & reveals true colors, Says Americans SUCK !!

[panamaican]

Hah — turns out I am not.

It’s not about “value” in the strict sense. It’s about talent having a power law effect on its impact of the role. The top 10% of construction workers aren’t producing multiples the value of the top 50% like in tech. We need that value where stateside both economically and to hinder China.

Generally, they're not really paying attention to what Musk and Vivek are saying. They think that the graduate hire from a top 10 program or the immigrant who was in the top 10% of his undergraduate program is displacing some American who graduated in the middle of the pack at a mid-tier university.

They simply have no idea how many immigrant graduates never land an H-1B job because they're just not good enough to warrant the investment.

It's literally 65,000 visas for over 1 million foreign students.

Americans aren't losing their jobs to middle of the road foreign students. It's the best possible international grads. And if some dude in Oklahoma can't land a STEM job anywhere because of the 65,000 h-1b visas, that dude probably wasn't that good to begin with. But rather than acknowledge that he's probably a top 85-95% level graduate, he'd rather we simply not hire more of the graduates in the top 1% just because they came from another country before they outcompeted the Okie.

 

[panamaican]

It's dehumanizing, firstly, second, you want the government to subsidize corporations. I already posted the article above as well as how much Musk is worth, it's very clear why the billionaire who bought the government doesn't want regulations in place to protect American workers. You're also anti union and said we shouldn't be "vindictive" I believe the word was, toward billionaires. Those are anti-labor positions couched in calculated rhetoric. I'm just calling a spade a spade.

They're not subsidizing corporations. In many cases, H-1B workers cost the employer more money in terms of fees and regulatory requirements. The wages might be lower but often it barely offsets the cost of employing that individual in the first place.

 

[Andy Capp]

I've said multiple times I want tech companies to grow so we can tax them to better fund social programs.

You guys want to protect some of the highest paid workers in the economy and for what? You think people like Mr Holmes wants a more robust safety net? No, he wants less competition from foreigners so his salary can be inflated.

I have no horse in this race so take it FWIW as just something I've been wondering about since the beginning of this exchange: why don't you look at it the other way and say bringing in TFW's increases the supply of workers so it reduces demand to increase wages?

 

[Islam Imamate]

It's dehumanizing, firstly, second, you want the government to subsidize corporations. I already posted the article above as well as how much Musk is worth, it's very clear why the billionaire who bought the government doesn't want regulations in place to protect American workers. You're also anti union and said we shouldn't be "vindictive" I believe the word was, toward billionaires. Those are anti-labor positions couched in calculated rhetoric. I'm just calling a spade a spade.

It's not a subsidy though, companies have to pay to sponsor HB1 visas. I also don't think it's important to protect tech workers who are among the highest paid in the country. In general I think it's better to focus on growth and redistribution than trying to come up with some theoretically optimal relation of production.

 

[deviake]

They're not subsidizing corporations. In many cases, H-1B workers cost the employer more money in terms of fees and regulatory requirements. The wages might be lower but often it barely offsets the cost of employing that individual in the first place.

There has to be a financial incentive or he wouldn't be so vociferous about it, particularly given that he's laid off a bunch of workers this year

 

[Cajun]

I have no horse in this race so take it FWIW as just something I've been wondering about since the beginning of this exchange: why don't you look at it the other way and say bringing in TFW's increases the supply of workers so it reduces demand to increase wages?

It's a fair argument. I have only come from the immigration side and if we are taking in 1M+ legally pet year then these are as good as any. But I def get the other side like what you mentioned with flooding the market with tfw. Don't know we've gotten there but it's a valid point if wages are lowered in a field or we aren't utilizing any good domestic labor. I would need to see how many visas are used in a particular field. But the criticism is also valid.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I have no horse in this race so take it FWIW as just something I've been wondering about since the beginning of this exchange: why don't you look at it the other way and say bringing in TFW's increases the supply of workers so it reduces demand to increase wages?

That's what others seem to be arguing. I'm sure there's truth to it but I don't think we need to protect tech workers.

 

[Mr Holmes]

I've said multiple times I want tech companies to grow so we can tax them to better fund social programs.

You guys want to protect some of the highest paid workers in the economy and for what? You think people like Mr Holmes wants a more robust safety net? No, he wants less competition from foreigners so his salary can be inflated.

I'm pretty far above the average local salary. If H1 was abolished I don't see it going any higher. And I've been pretty clear from the start why I don't like the program. It allows shitty companies to continue being shitty companies. I know this thru personal experience. The H1 people were like scabs to a non-existent tech union.

 

[Cajun]

That's what others seem to be arguing. I'm sure there's truth to it but I don't think we need to protect tech workers.

Well protecting any domestic worker is a valid consideration. Just not sure the tech field is flooded.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Well protecting any domestic worker is a valid consideration. Just not sure the tech field is flooded.

Having labor regulation is one thing but I don't agree with artificially propping up wages through restrictions on the pool of labour.

I'm pretty far above the average local salary. If H1 was abolished I don't see it going any higher. And I've been pretty clear from the start why I don't like the program. It allows shitty companies to continue being shitty companies. I know this thru personal experience. The H1 people were like scabs to a non-existent tech union.

If they're shitty companies how is it that they're not being tested by not shitty companies?

 

[panamaican]

There has to be a financial incentive or he wouldn't be so vociferous about it, particularly given that he's laid off a bunch of workers this year

It's not a financial incentive in the way that you're thinking. It's a talent incentive that yields financial gain. And that's hard for people to accept. Firing guys in the top 5% of world to hire guys in the top 1% of the world makes more money.

The top 1% will produce more, they'll innovate more, they know more, and they got to the top of their class or group because they are working harder than the rest. For a company that turns on innovation, that's an economic goldmine.

Remember, the innovations that workers come up with largely belong to the employer. Musk is a great example of understanding this. None of his companies are based on his individual innovations. He either acquired the brilliant innovations of others or employed people who innovated on his behalf. No different than Thomas Edison. So companies understand the more innovation they get out of their staff, the more advantage they can create in the marketplace.

And bright minds sharpen bright minds, no different than in athletics.

So, it's definitely financial but it's not about the wage bill.

 

[Mr Holmes]

If they're shitty companies how is it that they're not being tested by not shitty companies?

Shitty companies to work for. The doesn't necessary mean the product was shitty. Amazon is famous for being a awful place to work.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Shitty companies to work for. The doesn't necessary mean the product was shitty. Amazon is famous for being a awful place to work.

Yeah as a warehouse worker, not as a SWE.

 

[panamaican]

As I typed, I was amused by a thought related to fast food work and the minimum wage. How often is the argument against raising the wages of people in low status jobs based around idea that the market has dictated that the job isn't worth more. If it was, companies would pay more. And that low status employees are wrong to demand more money simply "because". Yet on the other end of the wage spectrum, we have people arguing that even though the market is dictating a wage, we should intervene to prevent the wages from being depressed by corporate greed.

I'm always intrigued by the lengths that people will go to argue that low wage people deserve to punished with low wages but high wage people deserve to be protected.

 

[Soggust]

Generally, they're not really paying attention to what Musk and Vivek are saying. They think that the graduate hire from a top 10 program or the immigrant who was in the top 10% of his undergraduate program is displacing some American who graduated in the middle of the pack at a mid-tier university.

They simply have no idea how many immigrant graduates never land an H-1B job because they're just not good enough to warrant the investment.

It's literally 65,000 visas for over 1 million foreign students.

Americans aren't losing their jobs to middle of the road foreign students. It's the best possible international grads. And if some dude in Oklahoma can't land a STEM job anywhere because of the 65,000 h-1b visas, that dude probably wasn't that good to begin with. But rather than acknowledge that he's probably a top 85-95% level graduate, he'd rather we simply not hire more of the graduates in the top 1% just because they came from another country before they outcompeted the Okie.

Hold on, this is some dirty math here.

There's at least 85k H-1Bs a year, because they allocate an extra 20k to Masters+ degrees yearly and while there may be a million foreign students, they aren't all in STEM and they aren't all graduating each year.

Let's say there is like 120k Masters + Drs grads and another 30k who stop at Bachelors, ....that means there is like 150k graduates a year, not a million.

Therefore, if we say only like 1/3 of the 85k annual H-1Bs are students, we are still obviously not talking about hiring the top 6% of graduates, but conservatively like the top 20%, with the argument being that we need to raise that number.

There has to be a financial incentive or he wouldn't be so vociferous about it, particularly given that he's laid off a bunch of workers this year

Because if the pay is the same, getting 10-12 hours of work out of someone is "inspiring hard work" and the people wanting a normal 8-hour shift are simply lazy and stupid.

 

[Cajun]

Having labor regulation is one thing but I don't agree with artificially propping up wages through restrictions on the pool of labour.

If they're shitty companies how is it that they're not being tested by not shitty companies?

Not artificially no. But if it is occurring naturally which it may in this circumstance then that's the point.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Not artificially no. But if it is occurring naturally which it may in this circumstance then that's the point.

But it's not natural if the government is capping H1B visas and the people arguing against H1Bs are arguing for more such restrictions.

 

[Cajun]

But it's not natural if the government is capping H1B visas and the people arguing against H1Bs are arguing for more such restrictions.

The visas have always been capped. There can't be unlimited numbers. I think if you are flooding one field creating imbalance to the norm then there could be some cause for looking at that. Never really thought of it much in terms of what fields those are. Obv tech is huge now in India and a lot of companies outsource to India for things like engineering etc. So maybe those markets specifically. Again I don't know of the 85k per year, how many are in tech vs engineering vs another.

 

[Mr Holmes]

Yeah as a warehouse worker, not as a SWE.

Well there are shitty development jobs as well.

 

[Soggust]

But it's not natural if the government is capping H1B visas and the people arguing against H1Bs are arguing for more such restrictions.

I find your position harder to debate against, because I do think it's consistent and logical.

However, I think uncapping (or vastly expanding) H-1Bs effectively ends up, in practice, privatizing immigration via companies, right?

I think that's why I don't like that take in principle (and obv im just fuckin biased).