*Machida vindicates TMA (Karate)*

[TonyK]

I'll put it that way - a good Muay Thai fighter is dangerous. A good Muay Thai that adapts Karate/TKD/Sanda/whatever elements into his Muay Thai base is much more dangerous and unpredictable.

 

[A Muse of Fire]

It also amazes me how many people don't know that the entire concept of gis and belt ranks started with judo.... a whopping century ago.

eh the Gi older than that. The jacket is modeled after the style of clothing worn by the samurai. It is meant to replicate the style of clothing/ armor worn by the samurai.


The pants though did come later, as did the belt system, But the idea of wearing a heavy jacket and using it to throw/ choke people is older than 100 years.

 

[roaringboy]

Where has this notion come from that karate doesn't teach you to strike with the shin?

The shin is used in all rounds kicks (if possible, depending on distance - but it is the goal) - to the leg, body or head.
The ball of the foot is used for a front kick and the heel is used for back kicks/spinning kicks.

 

[Saunamajuri]

Honestly, the ridicule about TMA comes (and came) mostly about Kung fu teachers trying to argue that their techniques are actually useful as self defence. Vast majority of kung fu techniques are not useful in real combat for they lack power to really disable the opponent or requiring to start the combo by stupid forearm block of attack which rarely works. Also, few styles of strikes in kung fu have a possibility of breaking your own hand or foot on strong impact due to the poor position of hand (or foot).

Also, check this oldie but goldie
[YT]_0gDsL247e8[/YT]

 

[Cup of water]

Yeah it's really about how you train. To be successful at MMA you need full-contact sparring and experience. A lot of techniques from Traditional Martial Arts work but of course you can't limit yourself to a style that only focuses on one range of combat.

Yea, it's about how the techniques are practised.

Practise your techniques slowly to become comfortable, then in dynamic intense situations, such as full contact sparing, and you learn to apply them in combat.

Imagine if people practised the dirty strikes and jointmanipulations of kung-fu and krav maga in full contact.
Every training session, 3-4 would go to the hospital, and 1-2 would die.


That's probably how the samurai and other ancient warriors practised at times.
A recipe for deadly instincts.

 

[Cup of water]

I'll put it that way - a good Muay Thai fighter is dangerous. A good Muay Thai that adapts Karate/TKD/Sanda/whatever elements into his Muay Thai base is much more dangerous and unpredictable.

I'm sure Machida has some knowledge og muay thai, but I've seen little resembling Muay Thai from him, and what I have seen that does, are techniques which are also part of karate.

Btw, John Makdessi also shows karate in the Octagon.

 

[DVN**]

I dont think people didnt think TMA was effective. They just felt all the flashy fancy stuff they saw in movies were BS.

The mma shrine once said that you take whats useful and discard whats not. Every technique is useful from kungg fu to boxing to BJJ. But some techniques are just more effective in cagefighting. That doesnt mean the other styles are useless. I believe it was the snobby mma'ist that were trying to say they found a "style" that works. Yet do not realize that mma itself is not a style.

Every martial art has something to offer. Whether it be timing, power, distance control, defense or movements. They can all be applied to mma if done the right way. Any fighter who dismisses any "style of fighting without actually learning and taking the useful things from it are losing out. You cant always know too much about something.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

eh the Gi older than that. The jacket is modeled after the style of clothing worn by the samurai. It is meant to replicate the style of clothing/ armor worn by the samurai.


The pants though did come later, as did the belt system, But the idea of wearing a heavy jacket and using it to throw/ choke people is older than 100 years.

I'm aware.

I meant the whole ensemble.

 

[lts5025]

The problem is most TMA practitioners do not have a training regime like prize fighters. They train like recreational hobbyists...because that is what they are. Nothing wrong with that (I am one myself).

The techniques can work. But it takes someone to train like a prize fighter (IE Machida, Pettis, etc). Obviously if that isn't your profession you're going to balance your training with the rest of your life. Early TMAists in MMA were hobbyists who got in way over their head against guys who were in better shape and frankly better prepared.

Now there are guys who are actually the complete package and can make the techniques work for them. But they put a ton of training in that is far more than we hobbyists put in (which is fine...just the reality of balancing out your life)

I disagree completely. The problem isn't the amount of time training, it's what's done in that limited training time. Take two identical twins, have one train TKD or shotokan for 90 mins three nights a week and have the other train Muay Thai or Kyokushin for 90 mins three times a week. Give them 6 months training at that schedule and the second guy will whip the first every time. Even though they're both just hobbyists, one twin's training is vastly more effective than the others. Why? Because one spends much more time realistically simulating a fight or simulating elements of a fight than the other.

 

[Jo Thaibox]

Hi, karate black belt here.

Machida vindicates TMA to some degree, but only partially. His fighting style is MMA with striking that is halfway between karate and establishment MMA. Also, his training methods are much closer to common MMA than to the typical karate or TKD dojo.

Going back to technique, take the Munoz KO for example:

GIF

His kick is a hybrid of a karate kick and a Muay Thai kick. His technique begins with a step forward with the front foot already turned outwards as it lands. This is how a dutch-style Muay Thai kick opens; it is not how a karate mawashi-geri is performed. In karate, you pivot on the standing leg as you rotate for the kick, not before, and there is no pre-step.

Machida's striking surface is his shin, as in Muay Thai. All karate styles I am aware of outside of Kyokushin teach to strike with the ball of the foot or the top of the foot/instep.

The articulation of his knee on the way out, and his retraction resemble a karate mawashi-geri, however.

You can do the same kind of analysis with his punches -- they are a hybrid of karate and MMA/Boxing technique.

And as for training methods, if you want to learn to fight like Machida, you are still better off at an MMA gym doing pad work, bag work, continuous padded sparring, grappling, clinch work,etc. like Machida does rather than going to a typical karate/TKD dojo/dojang and doing kata, kihon kumite, non-contact/light contact point sparring, & practicing techniques primarily into thin air in impractical (training-only) stances.

This! Thank you!

 

[Jo Thaibox]

P.S. Wing Chung is the superior TMA striking style, but you'll never see real Wing Chun cause only 6 masters in the world know real Wing Chung. How to tell which is which?

-If a Wing Chung Fighter loses = NOT Real Wing Chung
-If a Wing Chung Fighter wins, no matter how staged or ridiculously bad the opponent is = REAL Wing Chung

Dana needs to sigh more real Wing Chung fighters if he wants PPV numbers to go up. You'll definitely see more knock outs.

 

[shinkyoku]

Exactly. To increase profits McDojo's have to water things down too much. Otherwise a lot of them would probably go out of business.

A lot of McDojos are currently busy re-branding themselves as MMA. They latch on to whatever fad they think will earn them some cash.

 

[Castro Alves]

This! Thank you!

For what, lying outright, spreading misinformation? LOL at "dutch hybrid kick". This fucking place.

 

[shinkyoku]

One thing to consider that NOT ALL KARATE IS EQUAL.

This is Karate (the type Machida comes from)


So is this (what most europeans think of as karate)


and this (This is the type of fighting GSP originates in. And Semmy Schilt for those who follow Kickboxing)


and this (this is Masaaki Noiri, btw. Not unknown kickboxing champion in Glory&K-1Max)


and this


and this


and this


So is this (I guess), but I do not like to admit it.



The point is. If you cannot see the differences between these sport karate formats, you are blind.
different karate sports (sports, not formal style) results in different advantages/disadvantages for other fight sports.

 

[Konighter]

I trained trad Karate and after about 5 years earned my shodan. I did mawashi-geri training every week. Machida's kick was straight Karate, I don't care if 'it looked more MT to me.', garbage. That kick is basic Karate.

Most martial arts have good points, but like everything must be taught properly. Mich of my training was limited in terms of practical application, opwhich is why I ended up leaving that school. There are some very good Karatekas around besides Machida. But like MT fighters and BJJ fighters Karate fighters need to practice in a combat setting and have proper coaching in terms of footwork, movement, countering, timing etc in order to be effective fighters, and that aspect of training is sorely lacking in many TMA schools.

Thant's a knock on the school, not the style.

Exactly, it's not the style, but the teacher. Doing full contact shotokan karate for almost 10 years.

 

[Wayweary]

Honestly, the ridicule about TMA comes (and came) mostly about Kung fu teachers trying to argue that their techniques are actually useful as self defence. Vast majority of kung fu techniques are not useful in real combat for they lack power to really disable the opponent or requiring to start the combo by stupid forearm block of attack which rarely works. Also, few styles of strikes in kung fu have a possibility of breaking your own hand or foot on strong impact due to the poor position of hand (or foot).

Also, check this oldie but goldie
[YT]_0gDsL247e8[/YT]

The belief in the ineffectiveness of TMA in practical situations also comes form... experience in practical situations.

Plus, if a pure karate stylist (or one from most TMAs) entered the octagon, they would have little success. Machida is successful because he cross trains and trains specifically to counter grappling as well as striking. Pretty much all TMAs are incomplete. They have some useful techniques but they don't stand very well on their own. A big part of the problem is that the arts developed and are practiced only against other practitioners of the same art or similar ones. That doesn't lend itself well to the development of an effective fighting style. Bruce Lee was right and so were the Gracies.

 

[Flexwave2003]

A lot of McDojos are currently busy re-branding themselves as MMA. They latch on to whatever fad they think will earn them some cash.

Very true unfortunately. I know of one school nearby who is doing this exact thing. Its all about marketing, drawing students in and not about actually training mma fighters.

 

[tenniswhiz]

I don't think those guys vindicate TMA at all.

Guys like Machida and Pettis train in everything. And they are extremely quick and great athletes to boot.
A guy like Royce Gracie, on the other hand, is not a great athlete but beats these guys in a pure style vs style matchup most of the time, if karate or TKD are their styles. But they just happen to be ground wizards too...

 

[Nicslagan]

There we go.

I used to argue those topics back in 2005 but i was ostracized; '' you are so stupid, forms are useless muay thai is the only thing that is worth training''

The only advantage martial arts like muay thai and boxing have over more ''traditional'' arts are that they are more pragmatic. They throw you directly to the ring where you can test what works and what doesnt directly in sparring.

I started sparring in shotokan only after 2 years i was practicing the art, in boxing in the first week the teacher already throwed me to the wolfs.

But that doesnt mean traditional arts are completely worthless, first of all against a laymen in the street anything is useful, most laymens dont know even how to throw a proper punch.
Second against other trained fighter obviously you going to need some adaptations;- in the street anything can happen, but in a mma setting even pragmatic arts like Thai and boxing need adaptations for the smaller gloves, the cage, etc.

yeah, for TMA it's just a safety and longevity thing. Sparring hard the first day in boxing is almost useless in my opinion. I mean you are just going to get hit in the head too much. Boxing is great but most people need to go to work without black eyes or busted lips. If you get hit too much you just get a habit of closing your eyes. I think they should drill stuff more before they throw you in there. Not to say that I would be able to resist not going in and wanting to spar the first day.

Thai Boxing with hard sparring can get your knees messed up.

Basically I believe that if you take a striking TMA and learn all the kicks and spacing from the stricter, safer rules in sparring sessions you will be better off in the long run in Thai Boxing later. When you start you will already have all the tools. All your kicks will be fast and strong. You will just need to adjust them for Thai matches. Actually a lot of Thai fighters do this.

You can only box or Thai Box for so long without getting injured especially if you are not the best or most athletic.

 

[Kanster]

His calf looks fucking weird from that angle.