Looking to join an Aikido club, what should I expect?

[BlackBeltNow]

Uhhh, wake up dude. It takes discipline to ignore that fucking idiot who spilled beer all over you, stepped on your foot and is calling you a douchebag hoping you'll swing so he can shank you.

And if you've already got an air of confidence the odds are he'll find someone less confident to spill, step on and shank.

my point was they teach "words of the week"'s in mcdojos which they claim mean everything, but really are nothing. they try to simplify the solutions to the problems of the world in just a dozen key words. all you need to avoid confrontaton is use your people skills, not remembering a list of words.

 

[BlackBeltNow]

BBN: You're ability to pack so many factual errors and logical fallacies into one post never, ever ceases to amaze or astound. As I only have about 15 minutes and not the 30-40 minutes I'd need to even begin to explain how utterly, colossaly, astoundingly wrong you are (starting with telling a guy who used a pro bouncer trained in Aikido as an example that "It's all theory, no practice" when he's obviously put it into practice repeatedly), I'll not bother for now.

To the thread starter: Aikido is like any art-- it has strengths, it has weaknesses. It's not for everyone. I've seen it work in street encounters, so forget all the people saying its' useless...any mention of TMA gets that response since Sherdog is packed with guys who think anything not geared for pummelling pumped-up pro fighters in octagons is inherently worthless.

Expect to take a pretty good amount of time to be proficient; getting good at Aikido is not a 90-day miracle. The techniques are difficult, require still more difficult training to truly master (you'll start out doing nothing but learning how to hit the floor without hurting yourself so you can take ukeme) and take time to master.

Bear in mind Aikido is extremely passive; most of the time you must be attacked to have leverage to use against an opponent. This is a drawback since pre-emptively striking is pretty much not an option. On the plus side, the idea is to render an opponent helpless with only the necessary amount of force or injury, which will help if the law gets involved.

If you're looking to be Billy Badass: King of the Cage then forget Aikido.

aikido is very thing but martial arts. it's philosphy of how motion works disobeys basic mechanical physics. I already told you: "an old man can take down a huge athletic dude, but yet an athletic dude cannot use aikido to take down an old man?"; there's something wrong with this picture. Aikido makes you very good at letting your attacker go his way.

 

[Gregster]

aikido is very thing but martial arts. it's philosphy of how motion works disobeys basic mechanical physics. I already told you: "an old man can take down a huge athletic dude, but yet an athletic dude cannot use aikido to take down an old man?"; there's something wrong with this picture. Aikido makes you very good at letting your attacker go his way.

I'm now reminded that your ability to cram posts full of errors and fallacious thinking is rivalled only by your ability to not make a friggin' lick of sense.

What the HELL are you talking about?

If the philosophy disobeyed mechanical physics, people wouldn't get thrown in Aikido class. The bouncer I watched sending a guy flying upside down into a parked car would not have been able to execute the throw. If Aikido did not work, Morehei Ueshiba would have died a much younger man than he was when he finally kicked.

Why you maintain that people have spent decades to develop and perfect fighting styles that they know do not work is beyond me.

And since it matters in the context of your blathering post: according to mechanical physics, bees should not be able to fly. Are you going to try and now convince me that the notion of flying bees is bullshit propogated by McHives that teach uneffective flying techniques?

 

[BlackBeltNow]

I'm now reminded that your ability to cram posts full of errors and fallacious thinking is rivalled only by your ability to not make a friggin' lick of sense.

What the HELL are you talking about?

If the philosophy disobeyed mechanical physics, people wouldn't get thrown in Aikido class. The bouncer I watched sending a guy flying upside down into a parked car would not have been able to execute the throw. If Aikido did not work, Morehei Ueshiba would have died a much younger man than he was when he finally kicked.

Why you maintain that people have spent decades to develop and perfect fighting styles that they know do not work is beyond me.

And since it matters in the context of your blathering post: according to mechanical physics, bees should not be able to fly. Are you going to try and now convince me that the notion of flying bees is bullshit propogated by McHives that teach uneffective flying techniques?

Hey. Like i said: aikido was never even tested, even during its "prime". Spending decades developing martial arts don't mean anything if it was never tested.

The second reason: take 10 random peple who are clueless of martial arts. Showing all ten a really good TKD demo team school, and then a really good BJJ school, and then ask them which school they wanna learn. a lot of them will want to do TKD. Why do you think this is? Popularity of martial arts has nothing to do w/ its efficacy. THis means even if say in the year 19XX martial art "J" increased 50x in practioneers, it means nothing. Also note if a martial art is too unpopular, it'll die off. The TMA's taht exist today are the ones that did not die off NOT b/c they work, but because people continue to practice them.

 

[aaron_mag]

Are you going to try and now convince me that the notion of flying bees is bullshit propogated by McHives that teach uneffective flying techniques?

Oh my god that was funny!

BBNow...you do have a point. But you have blown it up into this martial arts conspiracy theory that has gotten to the point of ludicrous.

 

[Gregster]

Hey. Like i said: aikido was never even tested, even during its "prime". Spending decades developing martial arts don't mean anything if it was never tested.

COMPLETE FALLACY #1: "AIKIDO WAS NEVER TESTED"
Morehei Ueshiba accepted and won challengers from fighters all over Japan in everything from empty-handed styles to guys wielding swords, and he won. ANyone who knows anything about the history of Aikido (read: not you) knows this. This also assumes it's never been applied in a real fight, something I likewise know to be utterly untrue.

The second reason: take 10 random peple who are clueless of martial arts. Showing all ten a really good TKD demo team school, and then a really good BJJ school, and then ask them which school they wanna learn. a lot of them will want to do TKD. Why do you think this is? Popularity of martial arts has nothing to do w/ its efficacy. THis means even if say in the year 19XX martial art "J" increased 50x in practioneers, it means nothing.

COMPLETE FALLACY #2: "BBN KNOWS WHAT EVERYONE WANTS TO TAKE"

Never mind that according to guys like you, TKD is worthless and BJJ is the shiznit. You think most people want to knowingly engage in a worthless waste of time. This is also predicated on the faulty premise that TKD is useless in a fight, which it is not.

Also note if a martial art is too unpopular, it'll die off. The TMA's taht exist today are the ones that did not die off NOT b/c they work, but because people continue to practice them.

LOGICAL FALLACY #3: "BECAUSE CERTAIN ARTS ARE POORLY TAUGHT, THIS MEANS THE ART ITSELF AND NOT THE INSTRUCTION SUCKS"

I plan to start learning, among other things, BJJ soon. If I leave in a year, open a BJJ school, mention that I trained under a skilled BJJ-er (which I will have) and teach shit BJJ, does this mean BJJ is shit or I have no business teaching it and are fleecing people who know no better?

Of course, this is only about the billionth time I've said this to you. I don't expect your faulty, illogical opinion to change, but hope springs eternal.

 

[BlackBeltNow]

COMPLETE FALLACY #1: "AIKIDO WAS NEVER TESTED"
Morehei Ueshiba accepted and won challengers from fighters all over Japan in everything from empty-handed styles to guys wielding swords, and he won. ANyone who knows anything about the history of Aikido (read: not you) knows this. This also assumes it's never been applied in a real fight, something I likewise know to be utterly untrue.



COMPLETE FALLACY #2: "BBN KNOWS WHAT EVERYONE WANTS TO TAKE"

Never mind that according to guys like you, TKD is worthless and BJJ is the shiznit. You think most people want to knowingly engage in a worthless waste of time. This is also predicated on the faulty premise that TKD is useless in a fight, which it is not.



LOGICAL FALLACY #3: "BECAUSE CERTAIN ARTS ARE POORLY TAUGHT, THIS MEANS THE ART ITSELF AND NOT THE INSTRUCTION SUCKS"

I plan to start learning, among other things, BJJ soon. If I leave in a year, open a BJJ school, mention that I trained under a skilled BJJ-er (which I will have) and teach shit BJJ, does this mean BJJ is shit or I have no business teaching it and are fleecing people who know no better?

Of course, this is only about the billionth time I've said this to you. I don't expect your faulty, illogical opinion to change, but hope springs eternal.

Hey. I trained in a lot of traditional martial arts before I disliked TMA. I don't know what you've done, but i've done hapkido, TKD, kungfu, before I did BJJ. There was a time when I was still doing BJJ that I considered attending one of TAt wong's kungfu school here in SF. Do you know why I didn't sign up? Hint: It wasn't cuz I hated kungfu, cuz I did NOT hate kungfu at the time. it was cuz the school was too small for my liking.

Even when I did BJJ, I had done wrestling for 3 years, and I still liked TKD. I started hating TKD as early as 3 years ago when I did muay thai. (I did martial arts for 8 years). NOw that I box, I doubt TMA even more. You think I am biased, but I have every good reason for my opinions. I can't judge you, b/c I don't know your MA resume, but I assume you haven't been hit or slammed hard before, and you're steps behind me.

 

[Gregster]

I can't judge you, b/c I don't know your MA resume, but I assume you haven't been hit or slammed hard before, and you're steps behind me.

Well, you know what happens when you ASSume...

I've trained mostly TKD, Hapkido, and boxing with a smattering of other things (some basic Aikido, a little kung fu, some weapons training). The guy I trained under was a competitive fighter and a bouncer who'd been in more ring fights and forgotten about more street fights than you've likely ever been in. And he took the art(s) seriously and considered it his job to teach us how to fight, which he did.

Hence, I know for fact-- I don't think, assume, opine, speculate, guess, or hypothesize, but KNOW for a FACT-- based on his voluminous experience fighting, my decidedly more limited experience fighting, and the experiences of the other guys who trained ardently and sparred hard that TMA was not something created in Asia generations ago to give Asian guys a way to impress the chicks and look flashy but to fight.

Just because you got shitty training and are bitter about doesn't mean you have to project this on to everyone else. Yeah, there's plenty of crap TMA schools teachign crap TMA; the problem lies in the school, not the art.

 

[TheHighlander]

exactly. each martial art is different, and it does matter what TYPES of content you are exposed to, not really how good the contnet is.

I agree, but maybe not in the way that you think. It matters what types of attacks you are exposed to.

[quota]I disagree. Discipline doesn't do anything to avoid a fight. I can't see how it does. Confidence is the worst thing b/c it puts you at risk of being delussioal and into believing you can win a fight, hence increasing the chances of getting hurt. Awareness, yes I guess. Those three words sound good but are misleading. The best way to not get into a fight is "don't piss off the other guy." You don't need fancy vocabulary or key words.[/quote]

Discipline includes learning how to hold your tongue, even 'turn the other cheek'. Most fights take two people, and with some discipline you can choose not to participate. Don't confuse confidence and ego. You should believe that you can "win" a fight, but should have the discipline not to pick one. That leaves somebody attacking without provocation. If you are aware and confident, you are much less likely to be victimized. I'm not trying to give you any key words or a mantra, I have no idea where you're getting that.

TMA is not better htan nothing. The reason: False confidence in your own abilities. Coach-potato fu, if includes "giving money if the robber asks you to" is better than many martial arts. Like I siad above, a jogger has better survival chance than an aikidoka b/c he knwos he can't fight whereas the aikidoka THINKS he can.

Remember my key word: "False confidence". This is my #1 reason why TMa is worse than not knowing anything.

Interesting. Every TMA I've ever seen has said to hand over your wallet when confronted with a weapon. Sounds like your problem isn't the art but the person wielding it.

 

[Ude_Garami]

Way to completely miss the point chief. I wasn't trying to prove that all karate is ineffective, I was simply illustrating how it is possible for an ineffective martial art to survive in today's society.

In other words, go work on your reading comprehension.

You just contradicted yourself, there's some reading comprehension for you!

 

[Mirada]

It's not a contradiction at all. Let me break it down for you reeeeal simple so you can understand.


Point #1: All karate is inneffective. This means that every karate dojo in the entire world teaches nothing but complete shit. There was absolutely NO reference what so ever to ANY dojo other than my friends' in my post.

Point #2: Inneffective martial arts survive due to lack of field testing. This means that a dojo that DOES teach complete shit, like my friends, can get away with it because only one out of their 15-20 students ever had to test the skills he learned there (and he had to go out of his way to do it). This has absolutely no connection what so ever with Point #1.


There is no contradiction because they are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SUBJECTS and I was only addressing ONE of them.


Get it, champ?

 

[Ude_Garami]

Ok I apologize. I re-read you post and I agree with it. I mistakenly took some meaning from it that did not exist.

 

[colinm]

gregster is this guy in fight finder?

 

[Groundshark]

sigh

ROFL

 

[BlackBeltNow]

Well, you know what happens when you ASSume...

I've trained mostly TKD, Hapkido, and boxing with a smattering of other things (some basic Aikido, a little kung fu, some weapons training). The guy I trained under was a competitive fighter and a bouncer who'd been in more ring fights and forgotten about more street fights than you've likely ever been in. And he took the art(s) seriously and considered it his job to teach us how to fight, which he did.

Hence, I know for fact-- I don't think, assume, opine, speculate, guess, or hypothesize, but KNOW for a FACT-- based on his voluminous experience fighting, my decidedly more limited experience fighting, and the experiences of the other guys who trained ardently and sparred hard that TMA was not something created in Asia generations ago to give Asian guys a way to impress the chicks and look flashy but to fight.

Just because you got shitty training and are bitter about doesn't mean you have to project this on to everyone else. Yeah, there's plenty of crap TMA schools teachign crap TMA; the problem lies in the school, not the art.

Your resume is not even meaningful. I think I trained more or equal amt of TMAs than you. Of course you have faith in aikido; you don't appear to have done competitve grappling. You have no sense of body mechanics or how to throw/takedown someone. aikido is VERY off from reality. As cocky as it sounds, there is no aikido takedown I or any wrestler fears. It just doesn't work.

about me training shitty schools: did you get what I said? My point was you dont' know you get shitty training until you get real training. Tell me how can you know your training is not shit. Maybe you just don't know it yet? That was the point of my story of "I didn't know TKD was bad until I did kickboxing and boxing".

 

[TJS]

My thoughts on the matter-

I wouldent want aikido as my "base" or primiary style but I do think it can be usefull, especially for Law enforcement/corrections officers etc who have to deal with use of force issues.

I think it wouldent be bad to learn it if you already know how to handle yourself in a violent conforontation and need a lesser alternative.

 

[taknayduna]

my two cents...

i've been practicing aikido for over 17 years now. i came from and studied it in the far east. now that i'm in the u-s, i've been doing bjj and greco roman for a little over five years now. during rolling, my grappling coach begs me not to use aikido throws and locks against my partners as even the most advance students cannot take the falls yet nor are they familiar with the maneuvers of aikido joint locks. it simply catches people off guard, not knowing where it came from. perhaps it is even unfair. should i equate it with... like being punch in the face while rolling when there is no punching allowed in the first place. why do an aikido technique to a partner who only expects bjj/wrestling moves from you?

although i do understand where all these doubts about aikido is coming from after seeing the kind of training westerners have here in the states. a visiting friend once joined me in an aikido dojo and commented, 'this is what you get on a highly litigious society." or words to those effect.

hey, but they are all fun. it is fun to train in aikido or aikijujutsu. likewise in bjj/wrestling. to me, aikido is street smart and must not be confused with cage fighting. ground grappling is a very good competitive sportsand must not be confused with street fighting.

 

[Mirada]

my two cents...

i've been practicing aikido for over 17 years now. i came from and studied it in the far east. now that i'm in the u-s, i've been doing bjj and greco roman for a little over five years now. during rolling, my grappling coach begs me not to use aikido throws and locks against my partners as even the most advance students cannot take the falls yet nor are they familiar with the maneuvers of aikido joint locks. it simply catches people off guard, not knowing where it came from. perhaps it is even unfair. should i equate it with... like being punch in the face while rolling when there is no punching allowed in the first place. why do an aikido technique to a partner who only expects bjj/wrestling moves from you?

although i do understand where all these doubts about aikido is coming from after seeing the kind of training westerners have here in the states. a visiting friend once joined me in an aikido dojo and commented, 'this is what you get on a highly litigious society." or words to those effect.

hey, but they are all fun. it is fun to train in aikido or aikijujutsu. likewise in bjj/wrestling. to me, aikido is street smart and must not be confused with cage fighting. ground grappling is a very good competitive sportsand must not be confused with street fighting.

Nice to see both sides of the story.

It's important to remember that there are as many forms of effective wrestling as their are cultures, and that they only real differences come from the segmentations we create. Judo and Wrestling are different because when they evolved to excell under different sets of rules. In the beginning it's all the same "control - immobilize - destroy" strategy.

Also remember that wrestling and bjj are marketed and presented in the US as combat sports and must maightain a level of skill and aggression to prove themselves, things like Aikido and Kung Fu are marketed as instant death use-as-a-last-resort movements, and as I explained before there is little need for them to prove their worth. Also the intentions behind the instructors is completely different. In general wrestling and BJJ coaches' top priority is to have a strong school, a real mean ass kicking mother fucker of a school, while last-resort schools are often founded for the express purpose of making money. Finally, know that the marketing and intentions behind schools elsewhere in the world can and probably will be completely different from those in the US.

 

[Bubble Boy]

Hey. Like i said: aikido was never even tested, even during its "prime". Spending decades developing martial arts don't mean anything if it was never tested.

Yikes. Both Jigoro Kano (founder of Judo) and Gichin Funakoshi (founder of Karate) visited and trained wirh Morihei Ueshiba (founder of Aikido), in addition to reknowned jujitsu people of the time. In fact Kano said of Aikido: "This is my ideal budo; it is true and genuine judo." Judo people crosstrained in Aikido, and Aikido in Judo; there were numorous matches in which Aikido would come out ahead. Aikido techniques have been tested in interdojo matches of the time. Reportedly Aikido did just fine in these matches.

It should also be noted that Police forces in Japan utilized a great deal of Aikido / Traditional Jujitsu techniques in the time period of aikido's prime (and in fact they still do). These techniques were tested on the street.

Aikido has changed a great deal since that time. Ueshiba's training facility was at one time known as the "Hell Dojo." We'd be pretty hard pressed to find an Aikido club called that today. Why? All the new age weirdo's got ahold of Aikido and turned it into some foo-foo "spiritual" flowing style where you can throw someone without even touching them by extending your ki energy. Bah! But the core techniques still have some use, and were tested in the past extensively.

 

[Bubble Boy]

i've been practicing aikido for over 17 years now. i came from and studied it in the far east. now that i'm in the u-s, i've been doing bjj and greco roman for a little over five years now. during rolling, my grappling coach begs me not to use aikido throws and locks against my partners as even the most advance students cannot take the falls yet nor are they familiar with the maneuvers of aikido joint locks. it simply catches people off guard, not knowing where it came from. perhaps it is even unfair. should i equate it with... like being punch in the face while rolling when there is no punching allowed in the first place. why do an aikido technique to a partner who only expects bjj/wrestling moves from you?

We have an experienced aikido guy training at my Judo studio. He's a jailer. He's big and strong too. When he first joined the class he was pissing people off because they'd get him in his guard and he'd whip some small joint wrsit manipulation on them. I can't say that he ever tapped anyone, but I've been caught in one of his wrist cranks and they fucking hurt. If he new just a little more about leverage on the ground, he'd probably give some pretty good grapplers a run for their money the first couple times rollng with them (until they figured out where he was coming from). Good post taknayduna.