Elections Libertarians - A growing movement against political control

[Whippy McGee]

I first registered as a Libertarian after Ross Perot lost in his first bid. I didn't vote for him the second time. I've voted for Browne and Badnarik in the past for President. I'm not a full blown Libertarian, because I disagree on their Border policy and believe in a bit more government than them, but not much more.

 

[Mack Yancy]

Libertarians believe in limited government. It is not anarchy, which means no government. It just means taking the power and control out of the hands of the government and giving it back to the people. Let the people have more of their own money and control their own life, the government does not control you, you are free. A common expression is "F___ the government" It is an anti establishment movement designed to free the lower to upper class. Man is responsible for his own decisions and can do what he wants, while the government will still provide roads and a basic military.

Bill Clinton balanced the budget and Reagan also shrunk the government. This is a movement outside of the Democratic and Republican party. A movement designed to free Americans and let them control their own lives.

Here is what your favorite sports promoter thinks about it:




Out of every dollar you pay in taxes, how much of the money do you think actually goes to something you support? A dime? A nickel? A few pennies? Private industry beats federal spending in every avenue. Libertarians believe more in letting individuals make their own lifestyle choices and state rights rather than relying on federal authority.

 

[sickc0d3r]

Yeah, that's the point I was making. Most people disagree with libertarians because they want no safety net or regulations, which means that the gov't provides the force needed to enforce the rule of the rich but no real say in governance for regular people. It's actually very oppressive when you think about it. But if you open the door for some regulations, taxes, and post-market redistribution, you're just arguing about which ones are good.

I agree that markets generally work well, and interfering often has unintended consequences so a libertarian bias in policy is good. But if you believe that markets work, you are going to be drawn to some regs. Any time an entity incurs costs it doesn't have to pay, the market doesn't work (thus, for example, regs against pollution or even limiting carbon emissions are needed). Information and power imbalances in labor markets justify a minimum wage (as a crude fix) and some other labor regs. There's also the fact that roughly half the population (mostly kids, the elderly, and the disabled, plus we deliberately target >0% unemployment to keep inflation low) doesn't generate market income, which requires some form of redistribution. Etc.

I'm very much a free market guy, myself. But, it's important to recognize the drawbacks of any particular economic system. Even though it's essentially a competition, capitalism fails without the people who are bringing up the rear. And obviously we can't force everyone to participate in a market with property rights and then just let the people who aren't marketable suffer and die.

I'm just glad to see the libertarian posters aren't all gone. This place is more fun with some "taxes are theft, free market solves every problem" arguments.

 

[Sinister]

Agreed, but don't hold your breath

The only reason less political corruption seems impossible in the US is because of how heavily indoctrinated we are into wealth worship, consumerism, trickle-down Neoliberal garbage, and then are distracted by culture War nonsense while the robber barons pilfer.

 

[SKYNET]

go watch some of Sam Seder's "debates" with Libertarians

 

[KnightTemplar]

The only reason less political corruption seems impossible in the US is because of how heavily indoctrinated we are into wealth worship, consumerism, trickle-down Neoliberal garbage, and then are distracted by culture War nonsense while the robber barons pilfer.

You only need to change a single letter to perfectly describe my country as well.

 

[Sinister]

I'm very much a free market guy, myself. But, it's important to recognize the drawbacks of any particular economic system. Even though it's essentially a competition, capitalism fails without the people who are bringing up the rear. And obviously we can't force everyone to participate in a market with property rights and then just let the people who aren't marketable suffer and die.

I'm just glad to see the libertarian posters aren't all gone. This place is more fun with some "taxes are theft, free market solves every problem" arguments.

Whenever I hear AN-CAPs say sh*t like "just do something to increase your market value"...what I hear is "find a scam you can pull off that you arent likely to be involved in long enough to go to prison."

AN-CAPs in leadership positions just dont think charlatans should go to prison.

These kinds of ideologies are why we have megachurches, and we dont lock up those pastors who claim they can heal people.

 

[jx820]

What's needed is the government to be less corrupt and more efficient, there's a shit ton of waste in most governments.

The thing that I think a lot of people miss with the issue of both corruption and general efficiency is the scale. There are just shy of 99,000 public schools in the US. Let's say each has one 50,000 salary on the payroll that's either a worthless nepotism hire, or a redundancy, or someone who's been mailing it in since they hit their tenure. That's just shy of 5 billion dollars.

The private market has the same problem, they have nepotism, and redundancy, etc... but being smaller organizations the numbers don't add up to have the sticker shock that the public market does.

 

[Whippy McGee]

nothing is more stupid than anti establishment

hurrr durr let’s hate the establishment and change it to a different one

wow we still got an establishment

only the biggest tards tow that line

You would have made a fantastic Republican in the early 1970's.

 

[mixmastermo]

A great gathering of minds and ideas right here.

crazy how out of all of them, Gary made the most sense and he was the one that got booed.

Toaster guy was cheered.. wtf.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

The thing that I think a lot of people miss with the issue of both corruption and general efficiency is the scale. There are just shy of 99,000 public schools in the US. Let's say each has one 50,000 salary on the payroll that's either a worthless nepotism hire, or a redundancy, or someone who's been mailing it in since they hit their tenure. That's just shy of 5 billion dollars.

The private market has the same problem, they have nepotism, and redundancy, etc... but being smaller organizations the numbers don't add up to have the sticker shock that the public market does.

Over here it's more ridiculous government contracts. In my office we paid like £1500 for someone to put a tv up which I could have done myself.

 

[650lb Sumo]

Very topical at the moment. From memory, the first Ancient Roman fire brigade was organised by Crassus:

When they got word of a fire his team would go and stand outside the burning building with their equipment while the captain bargained with the owner to buy it for way below market price. If the owner agreed they would put out the fire, if not they just watched it burn. If they let it burn often the fire would spread to neighbouring buildings so the captain would begin negotiations with their owners too.

Even once a building had burned down Crassus's men would often still buy it. I don't think most buildings were insured in those days so people would probably snatch at say a tenth of the building's worth before it burned (and very little or nothing for the contents).

I'm just glad to see the libertarian posters aren't all gone. This place is more fun with some "taxes are theft, free market solves every problem" arguments.

I have heard anarchists say 'Taxes are slavery!' but if you a libertarian, who doesn't go that far, 'Taxes are robbery!' (taking with violence or the threat of violence) is more appropriate than 'Taxes are theft!'. Of course if we didn't have the military, police, trading standards etc. they would find out what real theft/robbery/slavery look like in a hurry.

 

[CantCucktheTuck]

any ideology that pushes personal responsibility isn't going to get much support. Most people are too soy infused these days.

 

[Rational Poster]

Libertarianism has a lot of flavors and contexts.

There's the philosophical/ideological libertarian which are basically leftwing anti-statists and anti-authoritarians. They believe privatization is inherently anti-liberal, but even still there's a spectrum of beliefs depending on the country and context.

Then there's American libertarianism, which is dominated almost entirely by rightests who are too ashamed to admit they vote down ballot for the GOP every election and believe in stupid shit like unrestrained laissez-faire capitalism, deregulation of markets, etc. and is really only libertarianism in name only.

 

[Sinister]

Very topical at the moment. From memory, the first Ancient Roman fire brigade was organised by Crassus:

When they got word of a fire his team would go and stand outside the burning building with their equipment while the captain bargained with the owner to buy it for way below market price. If the owner agreed they would put out the fire, if not they just watched it burn. If they let it burn often the fire would spread to neighbouring buildings so the captain would begin negotiations with their owners too.

Even once a building had burned down Crassus's men would often still buy it. I don't think most buildings were insured in those days so people would probably snatch at say a tenth of the building's worth before it burned (and very little or nothing for the contents).



I have heard anarchists say 'Taxes are slavery!' but if you a libertarian, who doesn't go that far, 'Taxes are robbery!' (taking with violence or the threat of violence) is more appropriate than 'Taxes are theft!'. Of course if we didn't have the military, police, trading standards etc. they would find out what real theft/robbery/slavery look like in a hurry.

The Scorcese film "Gangs of New York" took an actual regular historical occurrence of poorly regulated fire brigades who were essentially also gangs who competed over territory. They would often bicker among themselves and get into fights while the house burned and was looted:



Without Governmental protections this kind of sh*t happens quickly. There were Cops that were busted looting after Hurricane Katrina. When my Family was in Hurricane Andrew Cops just refused to work and some people turned to looting and marauding. However the worst were the price gouges. Selling bags of ice for $10, 2x4's for $20 sometimes. That didnt stop until the National Guard literally pointed guns at them and threatened them.

Everyone thinks they're prepared for Mad Max because they think they'll be Immortan Joe. In reality they're either his diseased offspring, or the people he was telling not to get used to water because the desire for it will make them weak...who were doing his farming for him

 

[KaNesDeath]

Modern day libertarians dont want limited government. Desire is to recreate existing governmental agencies based on their political beliefs.

 

[Whippy McGee]

Over here it's more ridiculous government contracts. In my office we paid like £1500 for someone to put a tv up which I could have done myself.

lol... I had a friend and business associate that took a government job with the U.S. Department of Energy for the Hanford site in the state of Washington. Long story short, I was in his office visiting and he had this whiteboard on the ground. I asked him why he didn't just put it up and he said the Union would throw a fit and he'd have to deal with explaining why he didn't wait a week for them to show up and do it "professionally and safely".

I think private unions are a great idea. Public unions are an abomination.

 

[sickc0d3r]

Whenever I hear AN-CAPs say sh*t like "just do something to increase your market value"...what I hear is "find a scam you can pull off that you arent likely to be involved in long enough to go to prison."

AN-CAPs in leadership positions just dont think charlatans should go to prison.

These kinds of ideologies are why we have megachurches, and we dont lock up those pastors who claim they can heal people.

Most people don't even have any say in it. As JVS mentioned, kids, old people, disabled and their caretakers, that's a massive percentage of the "unmarketable".

But, to expand on my own thoughts about it, we rely on low income workers. Companies rely on them, consumers rely on them, and they themselves make up a large bloc of consumers. And if we aren't down with forcing companies to pay a living wage, then we probably have to subsidize them some other way. And that way ain't the ancap utopian's favorite fall back "charity", either.

 

[chardog]

A lot of libertarians support Donald Trump.. a man who wants all the power to himself. Rand Paul supports Trump. Whats up with that?

if he had so much power, he wouldnt have been indicted four times

 

[Hellowhosthat]

lol... I had a friend and business associate that took a government job with the U.S. Department of Energy for the Hanford site in the state of Washington. Long story short, I was in his office visiting and he had this whiteboard on the ground. I asked him why he didn't just put it up and he said the Union would throw a fit and he'd have to deal with explaining why he didn't wait a week for them to show up and do it "professionally and safely".

I think private unions are a great idea. Public unions are an abomination.

Ours isn't so much a union issue it's just that rather than hire a handyman who works for the government to service government buildings in a city we outsource to private companies who do it per department, so we get someone coming from 50 miles away to change a fucking light.