Let's talk about Corporal Upham from Saving Private Ryan

Coward. Having never been in combat I can't claim I wouldn't do the same in Upham's shoes.
But I would consider myself a coward afterward for not even trying to intervene.
 
Sasquatch Smith said:
Fuck Upham.

I felt pretty sorry for the guy up until the moment he didn't enter that room to help Mellish. Up until then, even though he was scared he was at least trying to do what he could to help. Carrying the ammo and shit. At that moment though, he heard a clearly intense 1 on 1 fight and cried like a baby instead of helping. Stupid bitch. Bothered me as a kid seeing the movie for the first time, bothers me still.

this is a top 2 or 3 all time movie for me by the way. Agreed that the knife slowly plunging into Mellish's chest is fucking tough to watch.
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What makes it gritty is when the German tells him, "shhhhhhhh"
 
Jermei said:
Alright I get it, you were going into action and I can see you not wanting that type of guy .I was thinking along the lines of just a typical boot camp... but is harassment, beatings and bringing another man to suicide the only way to get someone kicked from the infantry? And how does a guy like that even get in... you'd think your superiors would spot a weakling a mile away know you types re going to shred him to pieces.
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Shit bags slide through. It's really not hard as people think to get into the fleet. I worked with a guy who literally couldn't button the largest size trousers they make. He was legit 300+ lbs, and still managed to stay in the unit. He was with another platoon so he wasn't my problem.

The guy in my platoon was in decent shape, but he was stupid, a coward, and was always causing problems. He just couldn't get with the program and had no intentions of going anywhere without us pushing back. I'll admit we were pretty vicious but thats the mentality of a grunt. The things grunts to do each other is straight shocking. Talking some shit, beating and locking a kid out of a room was by far not the worst behavior happening in the barracks. We've had literal riots before.
 
KnightTemplar said:
Waffen SS. The OP has a picture of him and you can see the Sig Runes on his collar.

The SS were scumbags. The Waffen SS were brave bastards, and perhaps some of the toughest, most professional soldiers that ever existed. But they were still fanatical Nazis, as liable to murder civilians or POW's as kill enemy soldiers on the battlefield.
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No, they weren't. This is a myth that needs to stop being propagated.

The Wehrmacht were true professional soldiers. The Wehrmacht looked down on the Waffen SS for good reason. While some SS were well trained and well lead, the SS used their fanaticism and discipline to make up for their lack of good soldiering skills, lack of training and doctrine and lack of institutional knowledge of war. This is demonstrated in how high their casualty rates were in comparison the German Army for similar actions. That the Waffen SS were capable of operating while sustaining heavy casualties doesn't mean they were more professional, it just means they were more capable of sustaining casualties.

Professional soldiers are beholden not just to military organization and discipline but also to military justice and the laws, regulations, methods, customs and traditions of war as it applies to enemy combatants and civilians of all sides. Professional soldiers do not commit massacres and war crimes on POWs and civilians on epic scales, as the Waffen-SS (not just regular SS) did while they were prosecuting war. Waffen-SS were involved in genocide in a way that the German Army wasn't. The leadership of the Waffen-SS (of the same people that were running the genocide) tacitly approved of all of these things that in a true professional military organization would warrant prosecution and punishment.

There's a reason that the Waffen SS was and is considered a criminal organization. Because it was. That they were held under some semblance of military discipline and could take military objectives doesn't make them good professional soldiers.
 
Doughbelly said:
No, they weren't. This is a myth that needs to stop being propagated.

The Wehrmacht were true professional soldiers. The Wehrmacht looked down on the Waffen SS for good reason. While some SS were well trained and well lead, the SS used their fanaticism and discipline to make up for their lack of good soldiering skills, lack of training and doctrine and lack of institutional knowledge of war. This is demonstrated in how high their casualty rates were in comparison the German Army for similar actions. That the Waffen SS were capable of operating while sustaining heavy casualties doesn't mean they were more professional, it just means they were more capable of sustaining casualties.

Professional soldiers are beholden not just to military organization and discipline but also to military justice and the laws, regulations, methods, customs and traditions of war as it applies to enemy combatants and civilians of all sides. Professional soldiers do not commit massacres and war crimes on POWs and civilians on epic scales, as the Waffen-SS (not just regular SS) did while they were prosecuting war. Waffen-SS were involved in genocide in a way that the German Army wasn't. The leadership of the Waffen-SS (of the same people that were running the genocide) tacitly approved of all of these things that in a true professional military organization would warrant prosecution and punishment.

There's a reason that the Waffen SS was and is considered a criminal organization. Because it was. That they were held under some semblance of military discipline and could take military objectives doesn't make them good professional soldiers.
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The idea that the Wehrmacht were simply good soldiers on the wrong side is also a myth. The Wehrmacht committed their share of war crimes. While not on the same scale as the SS for sheer vileness, they weren't exactly blushing virgins either. Some historians believe that this myth of the "honourable" Wehrmacht was built up immediately after WWII because the West could not afford to totally disband what was left of the German Army; the Cold War was starting and we needed West Germany as a buffer against the USSR.

And while we're on the subject, the Red Army was just as vicious as any Waffen SS unit. They raped the best part of a million German women, from girls barely in their teens to grandmothers. Rape was so commonplace that eventually even Stalin ordered his generals to put a stop to it.

The SS made convenient scape-goats because they were utterly beyond the pale in any case. So it was easy to blame them for nearly all of the Nazi's war crimes.

A lot of the SS units were poorly trained and disciplined. But their elite units could stand and bang with the best.
 
The guy wasn't a coward, he was a fucking desk jockey. He was probably drafted and never wanted to go to war. One day he's translating documents, the next day he's in real combat....the dude clearly wasn't cut out for that, and he didn't ask for it. Sucks that the Jew soldier got stabbed but he lost the 1v1 fair and square.
 
KnightTemplar said:
The idea that the Wehrmacht were simply good soldiers on the wrong side is also a myth. The Wehrmacht committed their share of war crimes. While not on the same scale as the SS for sheer vileness, they weren't exactly blushing virgins either. Some historians believe that this myth of the "honourable" Wehrmacht was built up immediately after WWII because the West could not afford to totally disband what was left of the German Army; the Cold War was starting and we needed West Germany as a buffer against the USSR.

And while we're on the subject, the Red Army was just as vicious as any Waffen SS unit. They raped the best part of a million German women, from girls barely in their teens to grandmothers. Rape was so commonplace that eventually even Stalin ordered his generals to put a stop to it.

The SS made convenient scape-goats because they were utterly beyond the pale in any case. So it was easy to blame them for nearly all of the Nazi's war crimes.

A lot of the SS units were poorly trained and disciplined. But their elite units could stand and bang with the best.
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Doesn't mean they were good, professional soldiers - among "the toughest and most professional" which is the statement that you made.

There is much more that goes into the profession of arms, being a professional soldier, and acting and conducting yourself professionally as a soldier than just being able to fight well while wearing a uniform - this is the point that you seem not to be getting.

As for the historical perspective of the Waffen-SS versus the Wehrmacht, regardless of the changing perspective, one started as among the most professional, disciplined militaries respected the world over for their conduct that eventually broke down in good order and discipline in an ugly front and the other started as a paramilitary wing of a political party that became more and more heavily armed. The two are not the same. They were not the same then. This is not just a immediate post war perspective, as the perspective of the contemporary accounts of Allied men who fought in the war show - Americans who fought Germans went into battle expecting and giving no quarter and courtesy from the SS, as they were not really considered soldiers.
 
Doughbelly said:
No, they weren't. This is a myth that needs to stop being propagated.

The Wehrmacht were true professional soldiers. The Wehrmacht looked down on the Waffen SS for good reason. While some SS were well trained and well lead, the SS used their fanaticism and discipline to make up for their lack of good soldiering skills, lack of training and doctrine and lack of institutional knowledge of war. This is demonstrated in how high their casualty rates were in comparison the German Army for similar actions. That the Waffen SS were capable of operating while sustaining heavy casualties doesn't mean they were more professional, it just means they were more capable of sustaining casualties.

Professional soldiers are beholden not just to military organization and discipline but also to military justice and the laws, regulations, methods, customs and traditions of war as it applies to enemy combatants and civilians of all sides. Professional soldiers do not commit massacres and war crimes on POWs and civilians on epic scales, as the Waffen-SS (not just regular SS) did while they were prosecuting war. Waffen-SS were involved in genocide in a way that the German Army wasn't. The leadership of the Waffen-SS (of the same people that were running the genocide) tacitly approved of all of these things that in a true professional military organization would warrant prosecution and punishment.

There's a reason that the Waffen SS was and is considered a criminal organization. Because it was. That they were held under some semblance of military discipline and could take military objectives doesn't make them good professional soldiers.
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Nailed it.
 
Matt4786 said:
He was a coward and fairly self-aware. I put the blame more on Miller for accepting the risk of bringing an obvious liability. Cowardice is largely in inborn trait and I don't think Upham could have done much to change that. The Steamboat Willie situation is sort of a separate issue in my eyes. He blew his 2nd chance so I think killing him was fair game.
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There's a couple of good points in here.

From one perspective, you can look at much of the movie as how much Capt. Miller has started to unravel as a leader. That he's got sound tactical and technical proficiency and the respect of his men covers over the fact that he consistently makes irrational decisions that run counter to his mission and gets his people killed throughout the movie. (In fact, that'd be a fun and interesting article to write.) Miller thinking he can babysit an untrained clerk-typist into the front lines of shooting war with a squad of his Rangers is just one of them.

I don't agree that cowardice is inborn. I think fear and the response (or lack thereof in the case of a freezing) is largely a part of the environment growing up, one that most people largely have no control over. I do think that most of those fear responses can be overcome, as this is the entire point of repetitive training, whether it's battle drills or working on a patient or flying a plane.

Upham's problem is that he is too self aware and instead of having a trained, largely autonomic and accustomed response, thinks too much. Instead of hating on Upham, the fault lies with the leadership in that Upham was taken into a situation that he was neither trained nor prepared to deal with. Upham is not really a soldier, but is essentially a civilian in a uniform.
 
KnightTemplar said:
And while we're on the subject, the Red Army was just as vicious as any Waffen SS unit. They raped the best part of a million German women, from girls barely in their teens to grandmothers. Rape was so commonplace that eventually even Stalin ordered his generals to put a stop to it.

The SS made convenient scape-goats because they were utterly beyond the pale in any case. So it was easy to blame them for nearly all of the Nazi's war crimes.

A lot of the SS units were poorly trained and disciplined. But their elite units could stand and bang with the best.
Click to expand...


When I was traveling Europe I met someone who's Grandmother survived Auschwitz and was "rescued" by the Russians who treated her worse than the Nazi's did in the camp and he said they raped her. The guy I was talking to was getting choked up about it and our conversation ended as quickly as you read this but it's true.

Also, had the war gone on the Hitler Youth would have grown up to be absolute monsters. I've no doubt the worst was yet to come if WWII didn't end when it did.
 
Mellish should have grabbed Hendersons Thompson. His M1 had jammed, but why engage in a hand to hand fight when you have a loaded Thompson next to you?
Upham had barely any training. He was a noob being dropped into a nasty fight. Shit would happen to anyone without any true professional combat training. Think Lt. Dike in BoB. Still should have dome pieced that knifey German though.
 
Not really a coward, he just wasn't mentally prepared for any of it. His mind froze when Adam Goldberg's character was knifed and he wasn't mentally there to kill anyone or fight at all really. When he shot the soldier at the end it was basically the culmination of the entire experience, he wanted to be the moral guy the good guy and let an enemy that was in a helpless situation go free, but then the enemy shows up and kills Hanks' character which showed that all the good will and morals he showed in that one prior act was all for naught. Killing that soldier was basically him killing off at least part of who he was as it was a strike against his prior actions.
 
Doughbelly said:
Doesn't mean they were good, professional soldiers - among "the toughest and most professional" which is the statement that you made.

There is much more that goes into the profession of arms, being a professional soldier, and acting and conducting yourself professionally as a soldier than just being able to fight well while wearing a uniform - this is the point that you seem not to be getting.

As for the historical perspective of the Waffen-SS versus the Wehrmacht, regardless of the changing perspective, one started as among the most professional, disciplined militaries respected the world over for their conduct that eventually broke down in good order and discipline in an ugly front and the other started as a paramilitary wing of a political party that became more and more heavily armed. The two are not the same. They were not the same then. This is not just a immediate post war perspective, as the perspective of the contemporary accounts of Allied men who fought in the war show - Americans who fought Germans went into battle expecting and giving no quarter and courtesy from the SS, as they were not really considered soldiers.
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With respect, that's semantics. I was referring to the ability of some(by no means all)Waffen SS units to fight and win on the battlefield against top tier opposition. Not whether or not they abided by the rules of war, which they manifestly did not. I don't buy into the myth of the Aryan Superman any more than I believe Russia won WWII. The fact remains that for sheer fighting ability and nothing else, the best of the Waffen SS were a formidable opponent for anyone.

A book was published a couple of years ago containing transcripts from a British POW camp. Unknown to the Whermacht officers, their conversations were being recorded by Military Intelligence. They spoke among themselves about eating picnics while watching Einsatzgruppen carrying out mass executions. The Whermacht wasn't as vile as the SS, but they had more than their share of fanatics and psychopaths.
 
It's frustrating because he wouldn't have even needed to do much to save Eddie from Friends. If he had started kicking at or slapping that German round the head it would've been enough of an annoyance to turn the fight in Eddie's favor. Could've smashed something over his head. The most minor of interference would've saved Eddie from being killed by that German.
 
Like everyone else, I think Upham was a coward, and thought the stabber was Willie.
 
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