Leglock Question

[flyingknee16]

Rutten's knowledge of submissions is so incredibly over rated it's insane.


Here's a hint: In general, he does not know what the fuck he is talking about.

What he does works for him, and that's why he is a 3x king of pancrase. Me and my training buddies have learned way more from his big dvds of combat and his extreme pencrase tapes than from our fucking "gracie bjj boring ass guard pass/super safe submissions" tapes have ever shown us.

If he does not know what the fuck is he talking about, why don't you go roll with him and submit him and show him he's wrong?

 

[colinm]

bas is by far not a higher grappling authority dude, dont take it personally. both kenny and frank showed him a thing or two about submissions btw, and he was really successful in pancrase (not taking anything away from him) because he was ahead of his time in crosstraining and was the only elite striker in fighting organization with undersized japanese grapplers.

dont get me wrong, i love bas, he's the greatest commentator ever. i would blow in my pants if i got the chance to train muay thai/standup with him...but he's just dead fucking wrong on the straight ankle lock thing.

sorry you find passing the guard boring. lemme guess, you like watching randy pin someone up against the cage for 5 rounds and deliver weak gnp from within the guard? i like people getting mounted and tko'd...so passing guard is alright with me.

 

[Mirada]

What he does works for him, and that's why he is a 3x king of pancrase.

Look at his competition.

End of discussion.

 

[flyingknee16]

Look at his competition.

End of discussion.

Ah, okay, I get it, Funaki, Suzuki, Ken Shamrock, Frank Shamrock, etc, these guys are lame huh?

His submissions are also way cooler and creative than the ones I've seen on BJJ tapes, and these subs he show often catch BJJ guys off guard because BJJers don't train a lot of these leg subs that he shows.

Point is, if you think Bas doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about, you owe it to yourself and the rest of the BJJ community to show Bas a lesson or two about submissions.

 

[Mirada]

Have you listened to his Pride commentary? When he tells us what the fighters "should be doing" he consistently gives exactly the wrong advice.

I'm not saying he doesn't know anything but his status as a submission mastah or even an authority is complete fabrication.

And yeah, those guys are lame, with the possible exception of Frank. And that's only four guys out of his whole career, plus he got his shit completely ruined by Kenneth so that's not much of an example.

"Cool" doesn't bring home the bacon, a lot of his moves look cool and creative like you say, but they're so cool and creative that they don't fucking work in a live situation.

 

[flyingknee16]

Have you listened to his Pride commentary? When he tells us what the fighters "should be doing" he consistently gives exactly the wrong advice.

I'm not saying he doesn't know anything but his status as a submission mastah or even an authority is complete fabrication.

And yeah, those guys are lame, with the possible exception of Frank. And that's only four guys out of his whole career, plus he got his shit completely ruined by Kenneth so that's not much of an example.

"Cool" doesn't bring home the bacon, a lot of his moves look cool and creative like you say, but they're so cool and creative that they don't fucking work in a live situation.

To be honest, I've never paid too much attention to what he tells the fighters to do when they need to do a reversal or escape, so I can't comment too much on that, but from what I do remember, he did say the correct things (and I'm a sufficiently knowledgable grappler in terms of both theory and application, not being stuck when I say this)...

Funaki and Suzuki definitely weren't lame, yo. These guys were the greatest during that particular generation of MMA fighting, and they were as good as the competition got. Of course, grappling evolved and everything from Pancrase to full MMA, but these were Bas' best competition during the bulk of his MMA career, so it's unfair to judge him based on what was readily available for him to compete against. He did want to fight Rickson and Couture, like we all remember, but we won't go into that...

And although I realize it's very important to do the subs that are the most high percentage/low risk as possible, there are times when his subs are good to use, but yes, they can be situation specific at times. Have you seen his heel hook where he uses his head and pushes up on the heel with his hand while holding the foot in place with his head? It's insane dude!

 

[Mirada]

Here's what I'm saying man, I guess I've been too caught up in my own shit and overstated things a bit.

First, Bas is an awesome fighter, one of the best strikers to make the transition to MMA, and probably the most well adapted striker in the sport untill Cro-Cop. His ground skills are definately solid, and he won't make a lot of silly mistakes. However, while he is very good, his skills on the ground are definately over rated. He's become revered as a submission expert, a ground specialist even, mainly because of an incredible (at first glance) record of wins by submission. However when you look at that list, he greatly outweighs and overpowers most of the people he submitted, and it also bears consideration that the quality of fighters at that point in Pancrase was very low. He's submitted a ton of people, but they were small (by comparison) japanese pro wrestlers for the most part.


As a fighter and a person I have the utmost respect for Bas, he's one of my all time favorites (of course he'll never touch Sakuraba) but this misconception that he is a definate authority to turn to on matters of intricate grappling technique annoys me. If you want advice on high level grappling turn to someone like Margarida, Minotauro or Marcelo Garcia. My point isn't that Bas is a shitty grappler, although I chose my words poorly and implied that at first, it is that there are tons of better grapplers around to learn from.

 

[Mirada]

Although it does bear mentioning as an afterthought, I use one of Bas' moves all the time, and it's not something I've ever been taught by a jiujitsu guy. And as you said it catches a lot of people by surprise and works great.

From the guillotine, going under both arms and grabbing behind the back for an old school takedown and neck crank. Bas didn't invent it, or even re-invent it, it's an ancient wrestling move but he brought it to my attention, and deserves credit for that.

 

[Soid]

I hope you're not talking about the "Passing The Guard" tapes. Passing the guard is one of the greatest BJJ tapes one can ever own, and passing the guard is to me one of the most important techniques to learn in grappling. Bas' tapes are very exciting and cool, but are meant for people already advanced in grappling who would wanna learn other subwrestling techniques.

Edit: When it comes to submissions, I'm sure Saulo would know what he's talking about more than Bas.

 

[flyingknee16]

I hope you're not talking about the "Passing The Guard" tapes. Passing the guard is one of the greatest BJJ tapes one can ever own, and passing the guard is to me one of the most important techniques to learn in grappling. Bas' tapes are very exciting and cool, but are meant for people already advanced in grappling who would wanna learn other subwrestling techniques.

Edit: When it comes to submissions, I'm sure Saulo would know what he's talking about more than Bas.

I once watched a BJJ tape that had Renzo Gracie and this white dude showing how to pass guard, and I couldn't believe how bad some of it was. They were basically setting themselves up for a triangle choke to pass the guard. yeah, I know, if you push on their bicep or stack/base yourself up high enough, it'll be alright, but I think against any good grappler, you'd never want to put yourself in that kind of situation, especially a guy with deadly triangle chokes.

 

[colinm]

thats the renzo gracie and greg kukuck (that name is definitely spelled horrendously wrong) series. its pretty much as basic as it gets. i personally have never ever ever been taught that guard pass and i train at his academy. i dont really have much else to defend renzo with there.....i wish that guard pass would be removed from bjj curriculum everywhere....youre right it is beggin for a triangle. my theory about that pass is that its just to get whitebelts used to the movements of passing under the legs.

 

[blanko]

all the post of above are correct but the achilles lock doesnt do any damage only sharp pain. Mr. Rutten says the achilles lock cant break or tear any bones and/or tendons

He is correct to a certain extent. If it's an achilles lock that is on "perfectly" then he is right. From personal experience i have had my cartilage torn and my acl partly torn from an high achilles lock.

as for the original question: worst case? I guess multile sprial fractures to your shinbone and torn ligaments in your knee from a HH.