Legality of the old school Tozi pass

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by TheStrikingGuy, Dec 15, 2012.

  1. TheStrikingGuy

    TheStrikingGuy Purple Belt

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    Hey guys,
    As you all know I'm pretty nooby in BJJ so I like to run stuff by the guys in F12.

    I've been playing with this guard break because it's great fun and feels quite safe - normally I grab a wrist and stand to break but it takes me quite a while to get a good grip where I find I can just go for this at almost any time. Obviously Tozi used to do it this way, and I've seen Shinya Aoki demonstrate it in an MMA context, but I'm uncertain of whether it would be legal - and the last thing I want to do is be practicing a dick move on my training partners!



    I've had it done to me and it feels like the pressure is on my ribs as my knee comes towards my head - like in that Pedro Sauer guard break, rather than on my neck - but I don't know if it's competition legal or seen as a neck or spine manipulation.

    Please let me know what you guys think and apologies for my ignorance!
     
  2. Taptap

    Taptap Blue Belt

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    There's no law against it afaik.
     
  3. Jagcorps_esq

    Jagcorps_esq Red Belt

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    I've never had a problem using it.

    They see any neck cranking in the same light as cross facing. There is really only neck cranking if the person imposes it on themselves. They can, very easily, realize any such pressure by simply allowing the pass (or turning their head the way you want them to, when talking about a cross face).
     
  4. Einarr

    Einarr Banned Banned

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    My favorite pass. I actually haven't used it in a long time because almost no-one closes their guard on me anymore. :icon_chee
     
  5. Einarr

    Einarr Banned Banned

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    Yup, same with the Can Opener to open guard.
     
  6. Jagcorps_esq

    Jagcorps_esq Red Belt

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    Well, the can opener is actually specifically mentioned as impermissible for some competitions.

    Even opening your guard doesn't entire alleviate the pressure there.

    The old rules allowed it to be used as a guard break, but not a submission (so once the guard was open, you have to stop). That was confusing and some issues arose.

    So, the IBJJF, U.S. Grappling and some others make it entirely illegal, all the time, for gi BJJ.
     
  7. Einarr

    Einarr Banned Banned

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    Oh, really? I thought it was still legal under IBJJF rules as a guard break. Meh, I never used it in gi anyway. Is it still legal in nogi?
     
  8. Jagcorps_esq

    Jagcorps_esq Red Belt

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    As far as I'm aware, it is entirely illegal in any IBJJG tournament, gi or nogi.
     
  9. BigAlfTheCrane

    BigAlfTheCrane White Belt

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    can opener is legal to open the guard, but as soon as they tap you get dq
     
  10. Jagcorps_esq

    Jagcorps_esq Red Belt

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    For many competitions, that is the old rule and the new one simply doesn't allow it at all. Too many people were gaming the system and tapping while their guard was still closed, forcing the refs to make difficult decisions.

    That being said, I don't think the treatment is universal. There are some competition formats that allow it.

    Certainly, IBJJF gi tournaments completely ban it. It's on their own webpage rules.
     
  11. codemonkey76

    codemonkey76 Black Belt

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    IBJJF rules are the same for gi or no-gi
     

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