Law enforcement is most obese profession - study

[sangreporsangre]

I am enjoying the idiocy of the basement dwellers here that have yet to work at a real job telling me how it is to be a cop. If it was so easy, why aren't you fucktards donning a badge and gun every day? Simple answer: You guys are punks. Bitch-ass punks that want your Bernie entitlements, Obama phones, or other gov't handout for doing nothing while real men and women that wear a uniform are busy shooting you full of Narcan, or saving your ass from the other stupid situations you put yourself in.

 

[Rod1]

Because drugs are the root of all crimes? Come on man, you can't be that naive.

The war on drugs is the reason drugs are a source of crime, SABMiller and ABInBev arent fighting turf wars over the supply of beer after all.

 

[Greoric]

This thread is a clean-up as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Bloody Pulp]

I have no problems with their deployment on QRF type responses like in SB. But they're of course not limited to that. As the saying goes, when you have a hammer everything looks like a nail.

Not really. They get used for high risk ops with SWAT but they are nowhere near "out on patrol" or anything like that. Funnily enough, more often then not the actual "patrol" side would be fine responding to some of these things without them but the admins are so worried about lawshuits if something happens and they didn't use everything at their disposal to be as safe as possible so they go with the bubble warp approach to damn near everything to cover the departments ass.

 

[Greoric]

Not really. They get used for high risk ops with SWAT but they are nowhere near "out on patrol" or anything like that. Funnily enough, more often then not the actual "patrol" side would be fine responding to some of these things without them but the admins are so worried about lawshuits if something happens and they didn't use everything at their disposal to be as safe as possible so they go with the bubble warp approach to damn near everything to cover the departments ass.

Yes really. Do you consider the 80 thousand no-knock SWAT raids used annually for credit card fraud, student debt nonpayment, simple possession, and overgrown grass high risk?

By the way, if they're doing dynamic entries and flooding into these houses then its not high risk, but they're still doing it tens of thousands of times a year.

 

[cleetus]

Yes really. Do you consider the 80 thousand no-knock SWAT raids used annually for credit card fraud, student debt nonpayment, simple possession, and overgrown grass high risk?

By the way, if they're doing dynamic entries and flooding into these houses then its not high risk, but they're still doing it tens of thousands of times a year.

If you're going to do an entry, you do it the same every time.

Secondly, provide source for the 80k no knocks a year that you are claiming. Do you have ANY idea how hard it is to get a no-knock warrant?

 

[cleetus]

How else do they expect the illegal money was earned? This is abashedly clear tyranny when the government steals more money from you than thieves outside of taxes.

How EXACTLY is this proof of your theory that police related crimes are due to drug laws? I must be missing something.

 

[Greoric]

If you're going to do an entry, you do it the same every time.

Secondly, provide source for the 80k no knocks a year that you are claiming. Do you have ANY idea how hard it is to get a no-knock warrant?

There's plenty of sources that have cited numbers in that neighborhood.

Acquiring warrants obviously isn't that hard if raids are getting conducted for non violent offenses. Exigency is also pretty easy to bullshit. But if its that hard for you, then it just reads like you have some upstanding judges in your jurisdiction. Congratulations.

And no, All entries are most certainly not the same. If you're doing a low surprise dynamic entry on a high risk threat then there's just a high risk you're going to get shot.

 

[Greoric]

How EXACTLY is this proof of your theory that police related crimes are due to drug laws? I must be missing something.

What do people buy drugs with? What else would give them reason to confiscate large sums of cash if not drugs, which they have no business doing?

 

[Bloody Pulp]

Not really. They're used when there is a reason, such as someone who is expected to be there having a history of firearms violations, being possibly armed at the time or prior violent law enforcement contacts etc. No knock warrants in particular need justification for a judge to sign off on it. I think they probably are overused to an extent but it's got less to do with "hey we have an armored truck lets drive it into that marijuana grow house!" and more to do with departments going above and beyond to make sure they aren't getting sued after the fact for not being prepared for something and something goes wrong.

I'll give you an anecdotal example of my experience to illustrate what I mean. Lets say I want to go make suspect contact and search at a house on a sexual assault case I'm working. Prior to doing that, I have to run a complete criminal history on the suspect, run the address for any prior calls for service, try to identify everyone who might also be in the house, run criminal history on all of them, write a search/arrest warrant and get a judge to sign off on it, if I want it to be a night service or special entry type case I have to outline why in the warrant and the judge has to sign off on that part too, write an Operations Plan that is generally 8-10 pages long and involves listing all the facts of the case, all of the personnel who will be involved, list what vehicles they will be responding in, what their role will be once on scene, identify the nearest hospitals, local or state agencies that will be notified, then that Ops Plan has to be approved by my sergeant, then the lieutenant, then the captain before finally getting an okay to move forward. I'll spend about a week working up all of that for what will in all likelihood be about 45 minutes of absolutely nothing out of the ordinary happening.

Now, if at some point in all of that it's determined that the suspect or someone else at the house has prior violent crimes/firearms arrests or there is some information that someone there will be armed then everything screeches to a halt and they assign it as a SWAT entry for some later date and the process starts all over again.

Granted not every department is the same and there are plenty of fuck ups but it's silly to suggest that all cops are just running around doing crazy shit with no justification and no oversight for even minor things.

 

[Greoric]

Not really. They're used when there is a reason, such as someone who is expected to be there having a history of firearms violations, being possibly armed at the time or prior violent law enforcement contacts etc. No knock warrants in particular need justification for a judge to sign off on it. I think they probably are overused to an extent but it's got less to do with "hey we have an armored truck lets drive it into that marijuana grow house!" and more to do with departments going above and beyond to make sure they aren't getting sued after the fact for not being prepared for something and something goes wrong.

I'll give you an anecdotal example of my experience to illustrate what I mean. Lets say I want to go make suspect contact and search at a house on a sexual assault case I'm working. Prior to doing that, I have to run a complete criminal history on the suspect, run the address for any prior calls for service, try to identify everyone who might also be in the house, run criminal history on all of them, write a search/arrest warrant and get a judge to sign off on it, if I want it to be a night service or special entry type case I have to outline why in the warrant and the judge has to sign off on that part too, write an Operations Plan that is generally 8-10 pages long and involves listing all the facts of the case, all of the personnel who will be involved, list what vehicles they will be responding in, what their role will be once on scene, identify the nearest hospitals, local or state agencies that will be notified, then that Ops Plan has to be approved by my sergeant, then the lieutenant, then the captain before finally getting an okay to move forward. I'll spend about a week working up all of that for what will in all likelihood be about 45 minutes of absolutely nothing out of the ordinary happening.

Now, if at some point in all of that it's determined that the suspect or someone else at the house has prior violent crimes/firearms arrests or there is some information that someone there will be armed then everything screeches to a halt and they assign it as a SWAT entry for some later date and the process starts all over again.

Granted not every department is the same and there are plenty of fuck ups but it's silly to suggest that all cops are just running around doing crazy shit with no justification and no oversight for even minor things.

No... they really are. The incidents are all over the news.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/02/16/pf/college/arrested-student-loan-marshals/

The costs being paid by people are also well documented...


http://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/no-knock-raids-SWAT-facts-figures/2015/06/19/id/651434/

http://www.wnd.com/2015/02/no-knock-police-raid-ends-in-blazing-tragedy/

http://www.vox.com/2014/10/29/70833...-police-killed-civilians-dangerous-work-drugs

The fact that you don't have major issues with this kind of deployment sends off some major alarm bells to me.

 

[Bloody Pulp]

Try reading your own article:

"On Friday, Aker was approached by two Marshals outside of his home when he went to check his mail. Things quickly escalated when they attempted to arrest him.

"I went inside to get my gun because I didn't know who these guys were," he told CNNMoney.

The two Marshals requested backup after Aker said that he was armed. After about two hours, he put the gun down and went outside, where he was arrested without further incident, the Marshals Service said."

Two US Marshals walking up to him outside before he runs to get his gun =/= no knock raid.

 

[JohnnySagebrush]

I am enjoying the idiocy of the basement dwellers here that have yet to work at a real job telling me how it is to be a cop. If it was so easy, why aren't you fucktards donning a badge and gun every day?

Maybe they aspire to make more than 40k a year and hang out with ill-educated miscreants like yourself?

 

[Bloody Pulp]

"more than 20,000 no-knock raids a year."

A tad less than 80k

 

[Greoric]

Try reading your own article:

"On Friday, Aker was approached by two Marshals outside of his home when he went to check his mail. Things quickly escalated when they attempted to arrest him.

"I went inside to get my gun because I didn't know who these guys were," he told CNNMoney.

The two Marshals requested backup after Aker said that he was armed. After about two hours, he put the gun down and went outside, where he was arrested without further incident, the Marshals Service said."

Two US Marshals walking up to him outside before he runs to get his gun =/= no knock raid.

Haha, look you've just let an anecdote get in the way of the point, which is that these raids are being conducted tens of thousands of times a year for non violent offenses. That's unacceptable.

The fact that a couple of officers had a sense of self preservation, and didn't go immediately busting into an armed guy's house has nothing to do with anything.

 

[Greoric]

"more than 20,000 no-knock raids a year."

A tad less than 80k

Ever heard of the term penny wise and pound foolish? Look at the other links. They're all in the neighborhood of the tens of thousands. One is to many, especially considering the number of times they bust into these places and they can't even find anything that could remotely appear as probable cause to arrest the "suspects".

 

[Greoric]

@Bloody Pulp and @cleetus I get that you guys already feel like your back is against the wall in terms of sentiment. That's a problem in its own right that's only factoring in to increasing this arms race. As you guys feel more threatened, you gain more of an us v. them mentality. As both of those grow you arm up more, which leads to a greater us v. them mentality.

All that's a problem, but not being able to condemn the glaring problems and misuse of force as part of the community in question is also a major issue going forward, especially in the cases of CAF, drug laws, and no knock raids.

 

[Bloody Pulp]

Haha, look you've just let an anecdote get in the way of the point, which is that these raids are being conducted tens of thousands of times a year for non violent offenses. That's unacceptable.

The fact that a couple of officers had a sense of self preservation, and didn't go immediately busting into an armed guy's house has nothing to do with anything.

You linked to a news article about some guy ignoring a court order and phone calls about the court order being contacted in front of his house by 2 US marshals preceded by "The incidents are all over the news." in reference to no knock raids. Perhaps read your sources to make sure they are in any way relevant to the point you are trying to make and there will be less confusion.

 

[Bloody Pulp]

Ever heard of the term penny wise and pound foolish? Look at the other links. They're all in the neighborhood of the tens of thousands. One is to many, especially considering the number of times they bust into these places and they can't even find anything that could remotely appear as probable cause to arrest the "suspects".

Just pointing out the rather large discrepancy in your description versus the reality of your own sources. Again.

I agree one is too many, unfortunately we aren't perfect and mistakes will be made. I'm actually not a fan of no knock raids barring extreme scenarios and think they should be utilized much less.

 

[Greoric]

You linked to a news article about some guy ignoring a court order and phone calls about the court order being contacted in front of his house by 2 US marshals preceded by "The incidents are all over the news." in reference to no knock raids. Perhaps read your sources to make sure they are in any way relevant to the point you are trying to make and there will be less confusion.

Yeah my bad. That wasn't the incident I was thinking of.