Krav Maga defenses from underneath?

[Charlitos1988]

I saw some defenses from Moni Aizik and one was made by the principle of twisting the head of the guy on top of you in order to turn his entire body in that direction and letting you flow with it and end on top of him.

Do you think that is a good defense or just a joke?

 

[juji gatame**]

It's a joke at all other places outside Israel.

 

[joe90210]

post vid, but it sounds retarded

 

[Ninjamurf]

It's not a joke. And it's not only Krav Maga. Head control is the basis for a lot of grappling arts...where allowed. I'm pretty sure that grabbing the head and twisting it would be illegal in BJJ comps. But Krav Maga is not about comps. It's about survival on the street. It's about gouging an eye, kicking your opponent in the nuts, and getting away from that situation. IF you are on the ground AND an attacker is on top of you AND you can get both your hands on the guys head...hell yeah you twist the shit out of it. You try to break his freaking neck. And if you know what your doing you will use his movements along with your movements and basically "sweep" him. Now, the problem is if you have an attacker on top who has ANY knowledge of the ground (or even a modicum of athletic ability.) No one is going to "let" you twist their head. They're going to move it, slam it into your face, remove your hands, whatever. The fact is if you are in a position to grab and twist his head with both hands you are most likely in a very bad position to begin with. Your attacker most likely has double underhooks on you. If you double underhooks on him, or an over under it's easy for him to just drop his arms and basically "remove" your hands from his head. But if he has double unders, and your arms wrapped around his head, that is bad for you. If he lets you grab his head and twist it, go ahead. But anyone in that top position who's spent a day wrestling or in a BJJ or Sambo class is going to come out on top in the exchange. The moral of the story? Learn more than one move. Learn how to get out of bad situations a number of different ways. Learn the basics of why a move works. The move you describe works because where the head goes the body follows. It the same premise behind things like, if you control the ankle, you control the foot. If you control the knee, you control the leg. Control the hips, you control the body. If you twist the head...the body will turn. Now you just have to make sure you can DO it.

 

[ProdigyOfZen]

It's a joke at all other places outside Israel.

Please, explain more! I want to hear (see read since this is the internet) this

 

[Title Fight Productions]

Head control just like head arc is a very legit concept in grappling arts.

 

[Hamsterdam]

I saw some defenses from Moni Aizik and one was made by the principle of twisting the head of the guy on top of you in order to turn his entire body in that direction and letting you flow with it and end on top of him.

Do you think that is a good defense or just a joke?

Head control is taught in grappling, so a grappler should be able to counter it, but it's still a very fundamental theory/practice. You hear, "Where the head goes, the body follows." in a lot of martial arts and other athletics.

 

[redaxe]

I can see how that could be very effective against an untrained or minimally trained opponent. But an experienced grappler will probably just armlock you if you reach up and try to twist his head from an inferior position.

 

[Balto]

What is the main advantage of this technique that justifies using it over a better type of escape?

Krav Maga escape technique: Does not work against tough opponents; works good against clueless opponents

BJJ escape technique: Works good against tough opponents; works awesome against clueless opponents

Since I don't see a major advantage to doing something like this versus a more traditional escape, I would laugh at it if I saw it demonstrated. Even if it might work against a clueless opponent, that does not make it a good technique. Random wild haymakers might work against clueless opponents too, but they are still bad technique by the same line of reasoning.

 

[teamcarvalho]

I saw some defenses from Moni Aizik and one was made by the principle of twisting the head of the guy on top of you in order to turn his entire body in that direction and letting you flow with it and end on top of him.

Do you think that is a good defense or just a joke?

He is a fake......he is a Judo guy but not a Krav Maga. I have friends in Israel and they all knwo about this dude claiming to be a former Israeli Special Forces. He is currently being sued by numerous people.

 

[Carrera26]

I think the idea is that as a Krav Maga practitioner you will also have little time on the ground and therefore want something simple and brute-force-able to help get you back up on your feet without assuming the benefit of actual grappling practice.

 

[teamcarvalho]

Please, explain more! I want to hear (see read since this is the internet) this

There are two Krav Maga legit organizations that come form Israel. Krava Maga Worldwide is out of the U.S. but the guy that runs it is not as high ranking as he claims to be.

check out this website its run by a friend of mine.

Exposing fake Israeli self-defense instructors..by Robb Hamic.

 

[redaxe]

What is the main advantage of this technique that justifies using it over a better type of escape?

Krav Maga escape technique: Does not work against tough opponents; works good against clueless opponents

BJJ escape technique: Works good against tough opponents; works awesome against clueless opponents

Since I don't see a major advantage to doing something like this versus a more traditional escape, I would laugh at it if I saw it demonstrated. Even if it might work against a clueless opponent, that does not make it a good technique. Random wild haymakers might work against clueless opponents too, but they are still bad technique by the same line of reasoning.

Krav Maga escape technique: You can learn it in five minutes

BJJ escape technique: You have to practice it for a long time

That's the tradeoff, the cheap trick techniques are something you can teach in moments, and might theoretically work against an untrained opponent.

The real effective, technically sound grappling techniques require lots of practice before you can be effective with them.

But the catch is, if you don't practice something, you won't be able to use it when it counts. The muscle memory won't be there, so you will probably just panic and forget everything. So since you have to practice anyway, you might as well practice the technique that actually works even against trained opponents!

 

[Balto]

I think the idea is that as a Krav Maga practitioner you will also have little time on the ground and therefore want something simple and brute-force-able to help get you back up on your feet without assuming the benefit of actual grappling practice.

So why not spend your time training a more effective technique?

If the idea is that you won't spend any time training it at all, then no technique is valid. People who think they are somehow going to magically pull off techniques when they have not even practiced at all are delusional.

There is no way to be able to grapple well without actual grappling practice. Period. You don't have to dedicate a ton of time to it, but you do need to spend at least some time. That time should be spent learning the most effective techniques possible, not stupid Krav Maga joke moves.

 

[Balto]

Krav Maga escape technique: You can learn it in five minutes

BJJ escape technique: You have to practice it for a long time

That's the tradeoff, the cheap trick techniques are something you can teach in moments, and might theoretically work against an untrained opponent.

The real effective, technically sound grappling techniques require lots of practice before you can be effective with them.

But the catch is, if you don't practice something, you won't be able to use it when it counts. The muscle memory won't be there, so you will probably just panic and forget everything. So since you have to practice anyway, you might as well practice the technique that actually works even against trained opponents!

You got it right at the bottom of your post.

The idea that you can learn an effective self-defense technique in five minutes is bullshit -- total bullshit. Any technique that you are going to rely on in a serious situation needs to be practiced over and over and over again.

People always want the easy way out. There is no trick to self-defense. It takes years of hard training in realistic arts to get there. Anyone telling you otherwise is full of it.

Since you're going to spend years training to learn how to defend yourself properly, you might as well at least spend those years learning the best techniques.

 

[hakkas]

So why not spend your time training a more effective technique?

If the idea is that you won't spend any time training it at all, then no technique is valid. People who think they are somehow going to magically pull off techniques when they have not even practiced at all are delusional.

There is no way to be able to grapple well without actual grappling practice. Period. You don't have to dedicate a ton of time to it, but you do need to spend at least some time. That time should be spent learning the most effective techniques possible, not stupid Krav Maga joke moves.

Selfdefence is something very different than sport/training. It can be most of the things sport is; fun, good workout, competative etc.
But a big diffrence is that if you sell selfdefence programs the customer wants it to be effective. Prisons, psychiatric wards or the average person might not have the time to become a great grappler, boxer and being able to defend against knifeattacks.

Selfdefence is so much more than just technique. It's about attitude, mental preparation and a course of action if something happens. If you give me 60 minutes I'll probably be able to teach a group of 50 how to eyegauge, bite and twist someones neck in order to escape if they end up on bottom, or at least keep the offender busy until help arrives. In 60 minutes I might be able to teach 20 people how to do a scissor sweep but I doubt more than 10 will do it in sparring. If they sparr with strikes I would be surprised if anyone without previous grappling experience managed to perform the sweep.

You are absolutely right when you say that there is no way that someone will be able to grapple without actual grappling practice. The point is that people that pay for selfdefence classes wants selfdefence and not being taught how to grapple, throw a perfect jab or a roundhouse kick.

 

[hakkas]

You got it right at the bottom of your post.

The idea that you can learn an effective self-defense technique in five minutes is bullshit -- total bullshit. Any technique that you are going to rely on in a serious situation needs to be practiced over and over and over again.

People always want the easy way out. There is no trick to self-defense. It takes years of hard training in realistic arts to get there. Anyone telling you otherwise is full of it.

Since you're going to spend years training to learn how to defend yourself properly, you might as well at least spend those years learning the best techniques.

"To get there?" To get were? Become a great streetfighter? Sure. For a woman being able to defend hereself against a rapist? Definately not. Just screaming stops a lot of offenders and drags attention = help. Do you need to train for years in order to be able to scream? Probably not.

Like I said. Selfdefence is so much more than just technique. You can even look at grapplingtournaments. People that are mentally prepared performes a lot better than those that doubts their own abilities.

 

[Balto]

Selfdefence is something very different than sport/training. It can be most of the things sport is; fun, good workout, competative etc.
But a big diffrence is that if you sell selfdefence programs the customer wants it to be effective. Prisons, psychiatric wards or the average person might not have the time to become a great grappler, boxer and being able to defend against knifeattacks.

Selfdefence is so much more than just technique. It's about attitude, mental preparation and a course of action if something happens. If you give me 60 minutes I'll probably be able to teach a group of 50 how to eyegauge, bite and twist someones neck in order to escape if they end up on bottom, or at least keep the offender busy until help arrives. In 60 minutes I might be able to teach 20 people how to do a scissor sweep but I doubt more than 10 will do it in sparring. If they sparr with strikes I would be surprised if anyone without previous grappling experience managed to perform the sweep.

You are absolutely right when you say that there is no way that someone will be able to grapple without actual grappling practice. The point is that people that pay for selfdefence classes wants selfdefence and not being taught how to grapple, throw a perfect jab or a roundhouse kick.

The idea that you can teach 50 people effective self-defense in 60 minutes is a joke. Selling that to people is not only a scam, but it is dangerous as well because the people are stupid enough to believe that their little 60 minute session is actually going to work if they are really attacked.

You mention that if you taught the scissor sweep, not many people would be able to pull it off in sparring after 60 minutes. This is true. It takes more practice than that to learn the move.

So why do you think that teaching eye gouging, biting, and neck twisting is any different? The only reason people cling to that illusion is because in the stupid self-defense seminars that teach that stuff, they don't actually spar at the end. If they do "spar", it's just some prearranged joke stuff.

I refuse to teach people self-defense in that manner anymore. It is simply dishonest and more danger than it is worth. If you can't commit to regular hard training, you have no business even learning in the first place. It is like carrying around a gun with no bullets.

 

[Balto]

"To get there?" To get were? Become a great streetfighter? Sure. For a woman being able to defend hereself against a rapist? Definately not. Just screaming stops a lot of offenders and drags attention = help. Do you need to train for years in order to be able to scream? Probably not.

Like I said. Selfdefence is so much more than just technique. You can even look at grapplingtournaments. People that are mentally prepared performes a lot better than those that doubts their own abilities.

Dude every woman knows to scream if she is being raped. Women are told that all the time. I have never once had a woman tell me that she didn't know you were supposed to scream if you were being raped.

Yet still if you look at it, a lot of women don't actually scream or do what they supposedly know how to do in the situation. It's because they learned from a stupid 60 minute seminar or something else like that and thought that was enough. But when it really comes down to it, they don't have anywhere near enough practice to feel comfortable enough to defend themselves. In the real situation, they can't defend.

 

[Christian Medina]

Hey folks. I'm the grappling forums resident KM black belt. Moni's version sounds like nothing I have ever seen in the system.

In fact, sounds like nothing I would ever want to try for SD, ju jits, wrestling, or judo for that matter.

And for those that don't see the effectiveness, okay!

I have students, male/female, big/small, civilian/LEO, who have used techniques in real time, and it helped them get home safe/apprehend suspects. I have a guy and a women right now going through LEO academies. Had a guy recently go through Marine OCS in Quantico. They all say their KM training has helped them stand out in the crowd, in a good way.

They get it, it works for them, and that's mostly what matters for me. Guess we'll agree to disagree.

Even some of my ju jits compadres hit me up to learn it from time to time. Just like anything else, there is good KM and bad KM.

Sucks if some of you are not exposed to good Krav.