Krav Maga: An Instructor's Response to Haters

[Avraham]

Searching these forums, I have found a lot of anti-Krav Maga posts calling it BS, saying it doesn't work, and the like. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, as am I, so I can't hold my tongue when Krav Maga is slandered without first being properly understood.

I am a Krav Maga instructor. I have trained in the art since 2007 within various organisations and gyms. In 2010, I gained my certification, in Israel, to train civilians. My background includes an extensive history of training in Boxing, and training in BJJ and TKD.

First and foremost, the hate on Krav Maga seems to stem from people who have attended one of the many commercial gyms and hated it, those who don't know much about it, and those who have done their research and don't agree with it.

A lot of what you see today as Krav Maga, is not or does not follow the true principles behind the art. Many places are now certifying instructors to teach Krav Maga in a weekend, no matter what their combat training background is. One place allows you to pay $5000 and become a Krav Maga instructor in 2 days, no experience necessary. It is a f#cking joke.

Don't get me wrong, there are many places who teach a "real-deal" style of KM, but the more and more I see, the more and more I think they are trying to distance themselves from original KM. In theory, KM should be changing and evolving as new effective techniques are developed upon. However, these quick KM gyms are teaching BS. Absolute BS at times.

In Israel, Krav Maga is much more brutal then it is in many Western gyms. They often teach a hard, forceful way of fighting in Israel and this is the way it should be. Beginners should always be exposed to the techniques very thoroughly before engaging in sparring and so forth, but once a fair amount of the techniques are picked up on, the student should be exposed to a fair amount of contact. You can learn all the techniques you want in the world, but the minute you first get smashed in the f#cking head in the street, you will freak out, and forget all the sh#t you learnt. So, intermediate students and above should be subjected to a fair deal of sparring.

Israel emphasises this. It emphasises so much on sparring and full contact, especially with its soldiers. Training with soldiers, I experienced a rushed, full contact sparring session that was intense and brutal. It did not feel good, and to be honest, it shouldn't. I remember being flustered, disturbed, and shaken up by the speed and brutality of the IDF men and women. In the Western gyms I have been too, some do spar alot but many ignore this and their students leave the gym feeling confident...until they get hit the f#cking head.

People ask, what is better? BJJ or KM. MT or KM. MMA or KM.

The answer? KM should be the same as all of them. The idea behind KM is to take what is useful from any other martial art, alter it to suit a street-based-self-defence [and not a ruled-governed sport]. If something is effective in BJJ, or MT, or any of it, it should be part of KM to suit the streets.

In other words, KM is MMA; just adapted to include techniques that would be illegal in an MMA sport. Krav Maga is meant to be a hybrid, mixed martial art taking techniques from every other martial arts, except we will bite, we will target the groin, we will plunge thumbs and fingers into eye sockets, we will smash people in the throat and base of the skull.

KM is MMA that does what is necessary to try and neutralise a threat. My instructor in Israel said it perfectly:
"Punch him, kick him, if you have a bat hit him, if you have a pen stab him."
Use what you can and do what you can to neutralise the threat. This is Krav Maga.

I do, however, have one complaint with the majority of KM gyms. Many will teach you how to defend against and fight off opponents, and get out of the situation as fast as you can. The idea is that you neutralise the attack AND remove yourself from the area AND this is to be done using 6-7 strikes AND be over within several seconds.

A guy comes up to you in the street and throws a hook punch. KM says block the hook, simultaneously punch him in the chest or face, continue to circle him while punching, push him away and run.
A guy comes up and grabs you by the throat. KM says to release the choke [using an actual effective technique], control one hand, kick or knee the groin, strike the head several times, circle around, and run.
A guy comes up with a knife. KM says do the knife technique, strike and strike and maybe even stab if you have the knife now, and run away.
This can go on and on...

Are these techniques useless and BS? Absolutely not so go f#ck yourself if you think they are. Go try them and train in them and really appreciate their effectiveness.

But...

What KM does not teach, or rather what KM instructors do not teach, is what to do should your opponent be a trained fighter. Like an expert fighter.

A guy comes up, throws a hook punch, you block it and go to throw the counter and he blocks that and unleashes a brutal combo of punches and kicks. Suddenly you are standing toe to toe about to engage in a solid MMA bout. The fight may not only last several seconds now and you may be required to use more than several strikes to neutralise your attacker. Barely any KM gyms teach these scenarios.

So is KM perfect? No.
The idea behind it is highly effective and when taught properly, can teach you highly valuable techniques that save your life. It could be the determining factor between being glassed or stabbed, or a woman being raped, or a child being abducted BUT IT DOES NOT guarantee you will be safe or "win" every situation, and unfortunately many places do not create hypothetical situations where you will come against a highly trained fighter.

When I teach KM, I will teach all the techniques for the disarms and blocks and counter attacks and so forth, but I also emphasis a lot of MMA-sport-based training that includes toe-to-toe sparring that might extend several minutes and require numerous strikes, grappling, etc.

This is just my 2 cents based on my experience and views on KM.

 

[lechien]

How lomg did it take you to become an certified instructor?

How do you breakdown your classes?

In bjj it is usually 30 min warm up and drills, 30 minutes techniques and 1 hour sparring.

How many hours did you spar in orfer to be certified?

 

[Avraham]

How lomg did it take you to become an certified instructor?

How do you breakdown your classes?

In bjj it is usually 30 min warm up and drills, 30 minutes techniques and 1 hour sparring.

How many hours did you spar in orfer to be certified?

I became an instructor after 3 years [civilian only], training a minimum of 6 hours a week. In Krav, we have...or had...passports that track your training to carry on us when we go to other gyms and do courses. I was probably training between 6-10 hours a week for the first 3 years, not including specialised workshops and seminars.

I was certified in Israel, by Israelis.

I assume you mean how do I do my classes, personally? As I do personal training and small groups, I don't have set timetables. I structure what the individual or the group is going to do based on where they are up to. Just as a personal trainer in fitness has individual clients and trains them based on their experience and progress, etc, I train my individual clients and small groups based on the same ideas. When they have been training with me for a certain amount of hours and I feel they are satisfactorily confident in their basic fighting techniques, I will introduce them to sparring. I dont instruct in a large gym setting, just individuals and small groups.

How many did I spar? I honestly cant remember. My first instructor was superb and I am glad I started with him. Almost all classes, except fundamentals and beginners, sparred for 1/3 of their ordinary class time and this instructor also had sparring classes dedicated entirely to f#cking each other up, within reason of cos. I attend almost all sparring classes, and have a solid history in amateur competitive boxing.

 

[yetanother]

The main concern with using mma things in a street fight is that's it's too dangerous for use outside of a supervised sporting context.
A trained mma fighter will effortlessly dispatch a unskilled opponent but may inflict to much serious harm and face legal consequence.
I haven't seen KM address that.

 

[rmongler]

'We only look for the quickest and most effective ways to disable someone!'

Yes, you and every other martial art in existence. KM is marketing catnip for mall ninjas.

 

[Avraham]

The main concern with using mma things in a street fight is that's it's too dangerous for use outside of a supervised sporting context.
A trained mma fighter will effortlessly dispatch a unskilled opponent but may inflict to much serious harm and face legal consequence.
I haven't seen KM address that.

We have and we haven't. In Israel, they are almost permitted to kill someone if that person is trying to kill them or seriously injure them. In Australia, for example, it isn't as permissible. We longer teach certain techniques in Australia because of this. For example, many instructors in KM no longer encourage head strikes when the opponent is on the ground.

What you said though, is a concern through and through and I have seen people stand before a magistrate and be told they are dangerous to society because they are trained martial artists. It is a fine, dangerous line.

'We only look for the quickest and most effective ways to disable someone!'

Yes, you and every other martial art in existence. KM is marketing catnip for mall ninjas.

You didn't read what I wrote, or couldn't pay attention to detail.

 

[Curly Peibce]

You should make a highlight of some Krav tech that has been demonstrated in real fights, be it mma or street.

That would help your cause me thinks.

 

[rmongler]

snip

I read your whole post, and distilled the issue down to its essence.

KM does not have a deep tradition or history, it is not socially entwined with a certain people as an expression of themselves (unless you count it as an expressions of venality), nor does it carry a pretense to be generally life philosophical. As a cultural artifact we cannot value it highly, which is how some historical martial arts (rightly) justify themselves.

What of praxis, them? Well evidently, we have precious little examples of self styled KM practitioners succeeding at the highest levels of combat sports either (or hardly any examples at all really).

So what does that leave one with? If all else fails, you can always try to appeal to the autism demographic and pretend to be 'brutal' badasses 'not afraid' to use 'dirty' techniques and willing 'to go to any lengths and do whatever it takes to achieve victory'. You know, just like everyone else. Hence, marketing catnip for mallninjas.

If you're personally invested in KM, to defend and promote something that your identity is invested in is natural. Id think you'd be a sociopath if you didint, so no problem there. But one must also call a spade a spade, and if the *average* KM shop is like such and such, then that tells you something; tells you that there is some factor (or factors) with a high degree of inevitability that helps make it so. And so you can reasonably expect those factors to be at play to some degree across the range of associated options (with a similar impact on end results). If you are an exception, then you are exceptional precisely *because* you deviate from the norm, thus proving the statistical significance of the rule.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

I became an instructor after 3 years [civilian only], training a minimum of 6 hours a week. In Krav, we have...or had...passports that track your training to carry on us when we go to other gyms and do courses. I was probably training between 6-10 hours a week for the first 3 years, not including specialised workshops and seminars.

I was certified in Israel, by Israelis.

I assume you mean how do I do my classes, personally? As I do personal training and small groups, I don't have set timetables. I structure what the individual or the group is going to do based on where they are up to. Just as a personal trainer in fitness has individual clients and trains them based on their experience and progress, etc, I train my individual clients and small groups based on the same ideas. When they have been training with me for a certain amount of hours and I feel they are satisfactorily confident in their basic fighting techniques, I will introduce them to sparring. I dont instruct in a large gym setting, just individuals and small groups.

How many did I spar? I honestly cant remember. My first instructor was superb and I am glad I started with him. Almost all classes, except fundamentals and beginners, sparred for 1/3 of their ordinary class time and this instructor also had sparring classes dedicated entirely to f#cking each other up, within reason of cos. I attend almost all sparring classes, and have a solid history in amateur competitive boxing.

One thing I specifically asked in a Krav Maga haterz thread is if Israeli soldiers really practice something that seems so absurd, and, if so, what does their version look like? One fallacy you see a ton of in bs martial arts is a military claim, presuming that it must be deadlier than deadly if militaries use it, especially the Israeli military which is, like, the most hardcore of all. In reality, the consensus among ex-military is that hand to hand combat is a tiny aspect of military training in this drones & ieds world, taught for creating awareness in stressful situations and (mostly) just because it's fun. Your post did a good job justifying the sincerity of your training as different from strip mall Krav Maga, but I still don't understand what the real thing actually looks like, what its purpose is, and whether it's effective and ineffective. Do you have any videos of this active sparring, and/or effective techniques specific to Krav?

 

[lechien]

How much pressure is there to buy the certification in KM?
I am only asking because the receptionist at my work told me she spent 3k for her son to become a certified km instructor. He is young and just got his learner permit to drive.

 

[Russky]

First and foremost, the hate on Krav Maga seems to stem from people who have attended one of the many commercial gyms and hated it, those who don't know much about it, and those who have done their research and don't agree with it.

A lot of what you see today as Krav Maga, is not or does not follow the true principles behind the art. Many places are now certifying instructors to teach Krav Maga in a weekend, no matter what their combat training background is. One place allows you to pay $5000 and become a Krav Maga instructor in 2 days, no experience necessary. It is a f#cking joke.
... f#cking ... f#cking ... f#ck yourself ...
[more f#cks skipped]

This is very convenient position. Whenever people bring in real examples you can always say that is not "true" KM.

Let me tell you the truth. You are not practicing true Krav Maga either. Krav Maga is a deadly art. It is so deadly that anyone who practiced true Krav Maga is dead.

 

[mattemate]

I think I can feel you, TS.

Sounds to me like he's trying just to differentiate a purer aspect of the discipline from the mall shit, just like some kyokushin guys or someone like Machida rep karate, but it is a far cry from the 10 year old sloppy blackbelt schools running around screaming ki-ai.

There are legitimately tough KM guys-- Bas Rutten talked about one, and how he's trained with that dude a lot and picked up a lot from him.

The disarms are kind of silly, though. They look cool, but are like parlor tricks. An Israieli I know said some years ago, a Palestinian dude went on a carving spree in Jerusalem, and encountered one of the top Krav Maga guys. The guy tried to disarm the guy with a knife, instead of running or finnding a weapon himself, and he got killed.

I still think basic disarms are good to know-- but it is just basic mechanics and would honestly probably be easier for someone with a good bjj base to pick up, as the understanding of leverage is definitely higher among bjj practitioners.

 

[Steve08]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

 

[Guy Marcello]

Honestly, Krav Maga is just like almost any "no rules," "deadly" martial art, it is all instructor dependent.

With that being said, 90% of them are likely bags of shit, and their students are less prepared than your average bar fighter, and probably 10% are legit, teaching useful techniques and taking from practical martial arts, and having students spar, and just adding "kick their balls, claw their eyes," to differentiate themselves from mma.

 

[Jesus Freak]

Searching these forums, I have found a lot of anti-Krav Maga posts calling it BS, saying it doesn't work, and the like. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, as am I, so I can't hold my tongue when Krav Maga is slandered without first being properly understood.

I am a Krav Maga instructor. I have trained in the art since 2007 within various organisations and gyms. In 2010, I gained my certification, in Israel, to train civilians. My background includes an extensive history of training in Boxing, and training in BJJ and TKD.

First and foremost, the hate on Krav Maga seems to stem from people who have attended one of the many commercial gyms and hated it, those who don't know much about it, and those who have done their research and don't agree with it.

A lot of what you see today as Krav Maga, is not or does not follow the true principles behind the art. Many places are now certifying instructors to teach Krav Maga in a weekend, no matter what their combat training background is. One place allows you to pay $5000 and become a Krav Maga instructor in 2 days, no experience necessary. It is a f#cking joke.

Don't get me wrong, there are many places who teach a "real-deal" style of KM, but the more and more I see, the more and more I think they are trying to distance themselves from original KM. In theory, KM should be changing and evolving as new effective techniques are developed upon. However, these quick KM gyms are teaching BS. Absolute BS at times.

In Israel, Krav Maga is much more brutal then it is in many Western gyms. They often teach a hard, forceful way of fighting in Israel and this is the way it should be. Beginners should always be exposed to the techniques very thoroughly before engaging in sparring and so forth, but once a fair amount of the techniques are picked up on, the student should be exposed to a fair amount of contact. You can learn all the techniques you want in the world, but the minute you first get smashed in the f#cking head in the street, you will freak out, and forget all the sh#t you learnt. So, intermediate students and above should be subjected to a fair deal of sparring.

Israel emphasises this. It emphasises so much on sparring and full contact, especially with its soldiers. Training with soldiers, I experienced a rushed, full contact sparring session that was intense and brutal. It did not feel good, and to be honest, it shouldn't. I remember being flustered, disturbed, and shaken up by the speed and brutality of the IDF men and women. In the Western gyms I have been too, some do spar alot but many ignore this and their students leave the gym feeling confident...until they get hit the f#cking head.

People ask, what is better? BJJ or KM. MT or KM. MMA or KM.

The answer? KM should be the same as all of them. The idea behind KM is to take what is useful from any other martial art, alter it to suit a street-based-self-defence [and not a ruled-governed sport]. If something is effective in BJJ, or MT, or any of it, it should be part of KM to suit the streets.

In other words, KM is MMA; just adapted to include techniques that would be illegal in an MMA sport. Krav Maga is meant to be a hybrid, mixed martial art taking techniques from every other martial arts, except we will bite, we will target the groin, we will plunge thumbs and fingers into eye sockets, we will smash people in the throat and base of the skull.

KM is MMA that does what is necessary to try and neutralise a threat. My instructor in Israel said it perfectly:
"Punch him, kick him, if you have a bat hit him, if you have a pen stab him."
Use what you can and do what you can to neutralise the threat. This is Krav Maga.

I do, however, have one complaint with the majority of KM gyms. Many will teach you how to defend against and fight off opponents, and get out of the situation as fast as you can. The idea is that you neutralise the attack AND remove yourself from the area AND this is to be done using 6-7 strikes AND be over within several seconds.

A guy comes up to you in the street and throws a hook punch. KM says block the hook, simultaneously punch him in the chest or face, continue to circle him while punching, push him away and run.
A guy comes up and grabs you by the throat. KM says to release the choke [using an actual effective technique], control one hand, kick or knee the groin, strike the head several times, circle around, and run.
A guy comes up with a knife. KM says do the knife technique, strike and strike and maybe even stab if you have the knife now, and run away.
This can go on and on...

Are these techniques useless and BS? Absolutely not so go f#ck yourself if you think they are. Go try them and train in them and really appreciate their effectiveness.

But...

What KM does not teach, or rather what KM instructors do not teach, is what to do should your opponent be a trained fighter. Like an expert fighter.

A guy comes up, throws a hook punch, you block it and go to throw the counter and he blocks that and unleashes a brutal combo of punches and kicks. Suddenly you are standing toe to toe about to engage in a solid MMA bout. The fight may not only last several seconds now and you may be required to use more than several strikes to neutralise your attacker. Barely any KM gyms teach these scenarios.

So is KM perfect? No.
The idea behind it is highly effective and when taught properly, can teach you highly valuable techniques that save your life. It could be the determining factor between being glassed or stabbed, or a woman being raped, or a child being abducted BUT IT DOES NOT guarantee you will be safe or "win" every situation, and unfortunately many places do not create hypothetical situations where you will come against a highly trained fighter.

When I teach KM, I will teach all the techniques for the disarms and blocks and counter attacks and so forth, but I also emphasis a lot of MMA-sport-based training that includes toe-to-toe sparring that might extend several minutes and require numerous strikes, grappling, etc.

This is just my 2 cents based on my experience and views on KM.

Kind of whiny for a Krav Maga instructor...

 

[freaky]

To me, Krav Maga is just like JKD developed by Bruce Lee. You add whatever technique or martial art you think is useful to YOU and turn it into your own thing. That's why you said KM is always evolving as new techniques come out.

Now my question is this: What is the difference between MMA, JKD and KM? They are all essentially the same thing. You take what works for YOU and turn it into your own thing.

Bruce Lee regretted naming his martial arts JDK because it suggests a form of martial art. The name he was really looking for was MMA. To me, MMA JKD and even KM are the same thing. If you're lazy, you can goto one of these classes or school have the instructor tell you what they think works for them and for you.

ME personally, I want to try it all and learn authentic Muay Thai for example and decide for myself what works and what doesn't work instead of having a watered down Mauy Thai style. Everybody is different. Everyone should have their own style.

I'm just sorry that Bruce Lee didn't coin the name MMA first cuz that's what JKD is.

Now you as a KM instructor tell me if I'm wrong. KM isn't a compilation of different martial arts. They took in what they think is most effective into KM and discarded the rest. Same as JKD. And same as MMA.

KM, JKD and MMA is like Jamba Juice. They mixed everything for you already. I rather pick my own martial arts or fruits and mix them myself. This way I get the seeds and skin and pulp and everything else you think is useless and discarded. Maybe I like the seeds too.

 

[BJJChess]

That ''martial art'' is advising you to kick the groin and gauge the eyes as it's ultimate weapon. Maybe hair pulling from time to time. I would bet on any bjj white belt against the best krav maga expert. Did you ever hear about some Israeli soldier using krav maga against Palestinian kid who throw rocks at them? No, they mostly use tanks and guns.

 

[Ethan]

It took me twice as long to get my brown belt in Judo, a limited grappling style, training the same amount of time per week, as it took you to become an instructor in Krav Maga, which according to you uses everything useful in Judo and every other style.

I am saying nothing aside from stating facts.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

I feel bad for ya son, I got 99 problems but getting beat up by krav maga ain't one.

 

[kenpeters8]

crappy grappling + crappy stand-up striking = krav maga

krav maga is pure garbage. Enough said.