kelly baggett on running longer distances

[Halical]

so i was browsing kelly baggett's site and came upon this article: http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/speedtraining.html

he mentions the following:

"To put it simpler, if you want to run marathons at a rapid pace don

 

[cockysprinter]

thats a no brainer. elite middle distance runners are still pretty fast, but theres a difference between HIIT and real sprinting.

 

[Ian Coe]

An interpretation of what he is saying is running hard sprints without much rest will result in a higher average running speed during the jog part of the run but you're sprint part will be slower.

Thats a pain in the arse. I wonder what happens if you train the middle ground (ie work pure sprints with lots of rest as well as running sub 6 minute miles for say 3-4 miles).


edit- I've heard something similiar

 

[MTnewbie]

Well i wouldnt call Buakaw and Yodsangklai "weak", I dont know what they lift (who cares) but they hit and kick like nobodys buisness...

They both run long distance everyday, atleast 10+ kilometers, and theyve been doing that their whole life.

Is it all technique? Hardly, they are both insanely explosive mf.ers

 

[cockysprinter]

An interpretation of what he is saying is running hard sprints without much rest will result in a higher average running speed during the jog part of the run but you're sprint part will be slower.

Thats a pain in the arse. I wonder what happens if you train the middle ground (ie work pure sprints with lots of rest as well as running sub 6 minute miles for say 3-4 miles).


edit- I've heard something similiar

erm, no. hes saying that if you do training sessions with lots of lactic acid buildup, your body will tend to adapt towards a slow twitch machine, even if you do sprint sessions on other days. and by sprints i mean real sprinting sessions, like 5x60 with 6 minutes rest between runs. none of this 'i sprint a lap and then i walk a lap!' crap. thats not sprinting. theres a lot of reasons for that. one, the body recovers from me-tabolic fatigue faster than cns fatigue. two, the bodys muscles adapt towards the stimuli theyre given. if a man with pure slow twitch muscles is trained only as a weightlifter, eventually his slow twitch muscles will convert. the same goes for someone with only fast twitch muscles running marathons. since slow twitch sessions can be trained more often, its easier to convert.

there is a middle ground, but it is biased towards slow twitch (which was baggetts point). ill give you an example. say you take an elite 100/200 runner and an elite 800/1600 runner. the 800/1600 guy will probably be able to run a 200 in 21 or 22 seconds, which is 80-90% of the WR. but if you take the 100/200 guy, i HIGHLY doubt hell break 5:00 in the mile (<75% of the WR).

 

[Halical]

erm, no. hes saying that if you do training sessions with lots of lactic acid buildup, your body will tend to adapt towards a slow twitch machine, even if you do sprint sessions on other days. and by sprints i mean real sprinting sessions, like 5x60 with 6 minutes rest between runs. none of this 'i sprint a lap and then i walk a lap!' crap. thats not sprinting. theres a lot of reasons for that. one, the body recovers from me-tabolic fatigue faster than cns fatigue. two, the bodys muscles adapt towards the stimuli theyre given. if a man with pure slow twitch muscles is trained only as a weightlifter, eventually his slow twitch muscles will convert. the same goes for someone with only fast twitch muscles running marathons. since slow twitch sessions can be trained more often, its easier to convert.

there is a middle ground, but it is biased towards slow twitch (which was baggetts point). ill give you an example. say you take an elite 100/200 runner and an elite 800/1600 runner. the 800/1600 guy will probably be able to run a 200 in 21 or 22 seconds, which is 80-90% of the WR. but if you take the 100/200 guy, i HIGHLY doubt hell break 5:00 in the mile (<75% of the WR).

thanks for that info cockysprinter.

 

[JPC]

So basically he is saying to do high intensity stuff at low volume, and anything high volume needs to be low intensity, or you lose fast twitch fibers.

 

[cockysprinter]

So basically he is saying to do high intensity stuff at low volume, and anything high volume needs to be low intensity, or you lose fast twitch fibers.

if you are training for speed and power, yes. the charlie francis training system is based entirely on that concept. its actually more complicated than that, but for the purpose of this thread, thats the quickest and dirtiest you can put it.

 

[cockysprinter]

goddamn sherdog.

 

[Ian Coe]

erm, no. hes saying that if you do training sessions with lots of lactic acid buildup, your body will tend to adapt towards a slow twitch machine, even if you do sprint sessions on other days. and by sprints i mean real sprinting sessions, like 5x60 with 6 minutes rest between runs. none of this 'i sprint a lap and then i walk a lap!' crap. thats not sprinting. theres a lot of reasons for that. one, the body recovers from me-tabolic fatigue faster than cns fatigue. two, the bodys muscles adapt towards the stimuli theyre given. if a man with pure slow twitch muscles is trained only as a weightlifter, eventually his slow twitch muscles will convert. the same goes for someone with only fast twitch muscles running marathons. since slow twitch sessions can be trained more often, its easier to convert.

there is a middle ground, but it is biased towards slow twitch (which was baggetts point). ill give you an example. say you take an elite 100/200 runner and an elite 800/1600 runner. the 800/1600 guy will probably be able to run a 200 in 21 or 22 seconds, which is 80-90% of the WR. but if you take the 100/200 guy, i HIGHLY doubt hell break 5:00 in the mile (<75% of the WR).

Hmm interesting


I see everything from a MT pov, hence my skewed thinking.
Wouldn't HIIT work therefore result in a high volume per unit time of lactic acid compared to say a steady pace 1 hour run? And from that one could lead to assume that by doing that the body would adapt by down grading the fast twitch muscles?


In your example it would be deemed a fast running protocal would be favourable over sprint sessions (I know I know, train both, I'm just playing devils advocate). You could then almost have the best of both worlds.
I wonder what the inclusion of weights would do to the bodys adaption if you focused primarily on 30-45 min fast sessions.

I also wonder how the body would adapt if calorie intake remains higher then calorie expenditure for the fast running group.

Cocky, while I have your attention.
Regarding running, do you know if there are any gel insole type things you can get to take some impact away when running. I've jared my knee since sunday and its giving me grief so looking for something to help after my break from running

 

[cockysprinter]

Hmm interesting


I see everything from a MT pov, hence my skewed thinking.
Wouldn't HIIT work therefore result in a high volume per unit time of lactic acid compared to say a steady pace 1 hour run? And from that one could lead to assume that by doing that the body would adapt by down grading the fast twitch muscles?


In your example it would be deemed a fast running protocal would be favourable over sprint sessions (I know I know, train both, I'm just playing devils advocate). You could then almost have the best of both worlds.
I wonder what the inclusion of weights would do to the bodys adaption if you focused primarily on 30-45 min fast sessions.

I also wonder how the body would adapt if calorie intake remains higher then calorie expenditure for the fast running group.

Cocky, while I have your attention.
Regarding running, do you know if there are any gel insole type things you can get to take some impact away when running. I've jared my knee since sunday and its giving me grief so looking for something to help after my break from running

not sure i follow you, but both long distances and interval training will eventually result in conversion if done at higher intensities. it wont if done at low intensities.

for fighting, pure speed sessions would be more or less unnecesary because the demands of fighting arent neural, theyre me-tabolic (ignoring technique). it also depends on the volume and intensity of your weights and plyometrics, but basically it does a fighter not good to fry his cns multiple times a week, like it would a sprinter or weightlifter, or even football player.

if caloric intake is higher than caloric output, then weight is gained. im not sure what youre getting at.

sorry, i never used soles. low volume and barefoot running is all i did and all i do when i coach.

 

[deadpool]

Great info cocky. As practitioners of combat sports it does make more sense to train HIIT than "pure" sprinting.

 

[cockysprinter]

Great info cocky. As practitioners of combat sports it does make more sense to train HIIT than "pure" sprinting.

i wouldnt do HIIT protocols because it results in lower quality work, but intensive tempo and extensive tempo would make more sense. there would be a fine line between those two if youre not a track athlete though. normally youd run between 1000 and 3000m at 70-90%. as fighter id recomend picking a pace (200m in 30 seconds with 2 minutes rest for example) and run as many reps as you can at that pace. then youll know how fast you can run and you can modify reps, paces, and rest periods as needed.

on the other hand i dont recomend only interval training. a fighter realistically fights longer than youll ever be able to handle interval training. running up to 5 miles definately has its place.

 

[deadpool]

i wouldnt do HIIT protocols because it results in lower quality work, but intensive tempo and extensive tempo would make more sense. there would be a fine line between those two if youre not a track athlete though. normally youd run between 1000 and 3000m at 70-90%. as fighter id recomend picking a pace (200m in 30 seconds with 2 minutes rest for example) and run as many reps as you can at that pace. then youll know how fast you can run and you can modify reps, paces, and rest periods as needed.

on the other hand i dont recomend only interval training. a fighter realistically fights longer than youll ever be able to handle interval training. running up to 5 miles definately has its place.

Thanks and I totally agree! I already do the 200m usually I try for 300m and then walk for a few, but I still need to push myself from resting too long.