Karate blackbelts in MMA

Dishonesty and immaturity?
Get down your high horse and stop throwing insults.

Why the tantrum Tay?
{<jimmies}And how am I throwing insults? In fact, how is your "butthurt" remark not considered an insult? Who do you think you are? I see the same Tay from our classical kata thread showing his colors once again. :)

And fyi if I was referring to you I would have mentioned you by name to make it clear that I was referring specifically to you. I was making a general statement which applies to whoever takes on that mindset. But you seem to take personal exception to it. Why is that?

Most people criticise a martial art without even ever trying it out.

We've already established that you're like "most people" and I'm not, so what's your point?

I took the time and curiosity of actually trying it and not just judging it from online content only.

According to what you said earlier in this thread you tried out ONE CLASS. One training session is not even close to enough time to really learn what a certain martial art is all about. I actually trained TSD for a little over 2 years. Between you and I which one of us is in a better position to say how TSD is trained and how they like to spar?

I'm not going to invest 2 years of training in an art I'm not interested in. I think that's common sense. However when I actually do look at online content like videos, I see exactly the same thing that I tried out. Can you show me videos of Tang Soo Do with the same style of sparring / fighting as Shotokan?

The first video is TSD sparring. The second video is Shotokan sparring. Same side on stance with their hands down, same bouncing up and down and same sloppy delivery of techniques to score a point. They're the same because they're both point sparring. And one art (TSD) is designed after the other art (Shotokan).





I can't wait to see what argument you're going to bring to dismiss both of these videos. The first two fights in the first video should end the argument entirely with the side on stances, low hands and trying to burst into distance to score a point. THAT is how we sparred at the dojang that I went to IN ADDITION TO the stances which came from Shotokan, the kihon which came from Shotokan, the ido geiko from Shotokan, the three step practice sparring from Shotokan, the one step practice sparring from Shotokan and the bastardized kata from Shotokan. It is what it is Tay.

Also, I never said anything negative about TSD, just that it shouldn't be in list of Karate blackbelts in my opinion, are you ever going to get over it?
Hotora86 doesn't want to include it either.


Not everyone shares your opinion and you seem to really struggle with that.

You look silly because I been got over it nor am I struggling with it. Go back and re-read the thread and you'll notice that once Hotora86 said that he is not going to include TSD and TKD practitioners on this list I LET IT GO. In fact, I made it clear that it was nothing more than a suggestion and wasn't a big deal to me that people didn't want TSD to be included. I challenge you to go back and post where I brought it back up AFTER Hotora86 said no to TSD and TKD. And DO NOT equate me asking you about your apparent dislike for TSD as the same as still requesting TSD guys on the list...unless of course you don't mind practicing dishonesty and immaturity. :cool:
 
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@AshiharaFan , @Tayski
Guys, please settle down. I know you both as decent, sensible, intelligent and well mannered posters, please don't try to change my opinion on this. ;)

I think You can agree to disagree on TSD being (or not) "Korean Shotokan". It was definitely influenced and has some major similarities, but it also has differences and is doing its own thing right now. From what I've seen it also varies from country to country and even club to club, so the answer isn't that obvious.

Bottom line, I'm not including TSD on the list, nobody is hating on TSD and nobody should be hating on other posters, since this is definitely not a good reason to start a flame war in such a nice thread, right? :P

Take a deep breath and please don't be this guy:

duty_calls.png

OK? :)
 
@Hotora86

I owe you an apology. This thread went off kilter and I know I had a part to play in that. I do sincerely apologize. I agree to disagree so everyone can move on.
 
And fyi if I was referring to you I would have mentioned you by name to make it clear that I was referring specifically to you. I was making a general statement which applies to whoever takes on that mindset. But you seem to take personal exception to it. Why is that?

Let's stop pretending for a second. We both know exactly why you said that, at least have the decency to admit it.

We've already established that you're like "most people" and I'm not, so what's your point?

"We've established"? Lol
Who's we? Who established what? Again you just make up your own conclusions and pass them as truth. So I'm like most people but you're not. OK buddy you're just so special.

According to what you said earlier in this thread you tried out ONE CLASS. One training session is not even close to enough time to really learn what a certain martial art is all about. I actually trained TSD for a little over 2 years. Between you and I which one of us is in a better position to say how TSD is trained and how they like to spar?

The difference is I never said you're right or wrong, I can accept that people have different opinions unlike you not accepting my point of view.

The first video is TSD sparring. The second video is Shotokan sparring. Same side on stance with their hands down, same bouncing up and down and same sloppy delivery of techniques to score a point. They're the same because they're both point sparring. And one art (TSD) is designed after the other art (Shotokan).





I feel sorry for you if you can't tell the difference between the 2 videos in terms of the stance, movement and techniques used, especially for someone who supposedly studied both arts.

The 2 practitioners in the first video have the same side stance as some TKD or American Kickboxing
practitioners. If you consider the first video the same as the 2nd video because of "the same side stance and bouncing up and down with sloppy delivery of techniques" you clearly don't know what you're watching. There's a clear difference in style, even the stance and movement is different.

I have no dislike for TSD but you made sure to question me about why I wouldn't want to include TSD in this list, and when I gave my reasons instead of appreciating my opinion for what it is you have to try to prove its wrong and try to convince me otherwise. That's the exact reason why I didn't explain why initially until you questioned me several times about it.

I'm done going back and forth on this topic. The fact that you posted those 2 videos and say it's the same style tells me enough about how much you actually know.
 
@Tayski you just couldn't let it go could you? I wonder how many other people see those two videos as being "different" in terms of sparring style and strategy as you do. I knew you would come back with an argument BUT you said NOTHING about WHY they're different. I knew you would do that too because I know your history. Good job. I said WHY they're the same but you cannot say WHY they're different. Nice. :cool:

It's not about accepting or not accepting your point of view. I KNOW for an ABSOLUTE FACT that the late Wang Kee extracted his TSD syllabus directly from studying SHOTOKAN KARATE books. I know this for a fact because I trained it, studied it and researched it AND it is common knowledge which is available to you and everyone else on the internet. But you made it clear (as you have in the past in our interactions) that you WILL NOT research or read it because YOU KNOW that you'll have to acknowledge my view on this as being factual and your view as being based on ignorance. THIS is what our argument has been about from beginning to end. It's not about right or wrong. It's about facts dude. And you have demonstrated on numerous occasions that you are ready and willing to ignore facts in order to hold onto a position or view point that you have. YOU are the one who hates the thought of having to say "I was wrong" come out of your mouth (or fingertips). I hope you grow up one day.

And as far as what we've established the type of person you are and how you hate to be proven wrong about something and how you get personal and go into tantrum mode (in other words, how you are like most people) I am referring back to the thread posted below. I hope you haven't forgotten about that because I certainly didn't. That's the thread where you little by little got personal and started going into tantrum mode because you couldn't intelligently justify your position that you took up and ended up being proved wrong (which I already knew anyway) by the time we concluded our heated exchange. You should've let it go.

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/traditional-karate-and-reality-street-fighting.3063481/
 
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I can't believe I actually have to explain the differences to someone with supposedly so much experience in those arts.

First video they have a complete side stance putting their weight mostly on their back leg and using their front foot almost like a jab, ready to throw side kicks from that front leg. Their front hand tends to be lower than their back hand at hip level. They're barely using their back leg to throw anything apart from the occasional spinning back kicks. They even tend to move forward with their front leg in the air like you see in TKD and American KB. Punches are also barely used. You can observe the exact same thing in the other TSD videos I posted.

The second video, the Shotokan one, their weight is more spread equally on both legs and actually there is more weight put on the front leg as opposed to the rear leg like 60% weight on the front leg with the leg slightly bent and 40% on the back leg which is more straight than the front one. Their stance is also not completely a side stance and they're more facing the opponent. Side kicks are barely used, and instead they rely more on circular kicks (mawashi geri), and gyaku tsuki with the occasional mae geri especially used as a faint. Their front hand is slightly higher than their back hand and the back hand is chambered ready to counter with a gyaku tsuki.

Is is really that difficult to see the difference?

You're trying to make this personal by holding grudges, posting old threads, and trying to discredit everything I'm posting. You're pathetic. The simple fact you can't tell the difference between the 2 videos you posted says enough about your actual knowledge.
 
I can't believe I actually have to explain the differences to someone with supposedly so much experience in those arts.

Well, let's get to it. If you're right and I'm wrong then so be it. I have no problem being corrected so let's see.

First video they have a complete side stance putting their weight mostly on their back leg and using their front foot almost like a jab, ready to throw side kicks from that front leg.

You're right. I see that. But I also see that in the second video. What does that say about you if you somehow (conveniently? ) missed that? The only slight difference (if there is one) is that the TSD fighters use their front foot for the sloppy side kick jab MORE THAN the Shotokan guys. Notice I said more than because Shotokan guys do it as well just not as gung ho about it as the TSD guys.

Their front hand tends to be lower than their back hand at hip level.

This is laughable and moot for two reasons:

A) In the TSD video you have ONE GUY who keeps his front hand lower than his rear hand. The rest are keeping their hands at the same level as the Shotokan guys. You honed in on ONE GUY and said THEIR FRONT HAND as if all of them are holding their hands the same as that one guy. C'mon man, you can do better than this.

B). In the second video the guy with the red belt does the same thing switching from front hand to waist level and back down lower than his rear hand. You will see people doing both ways in not only TSD but TKD as well (which I also used to train). It's called PERSONAL FIGHTING STYLE Tay. You're going to see both fighting preferences in all three arts (Shotokan, TSD and TKD). Are you going to deny this?

They're barely using their back leg to throw anything apart from the occasional spinning back kicks.

I re-watched the video and I don't see this as being true. Perhaps a third party can weigh in on that. While I see the TSD guys using their front leg more than the Shotokan guys I don't detect them using their back leg LESS than the Shotokan guys.

They even tend to move forward with their front leg in the air like you see in TKD and American KB.

This is a lie Tay and you know it. They are trying to score with a front leg side kick and you want to try to equate that with the WTF TKD foot hop? Come on man, seriously. You're worse than ridiculous. In a desperate attempt to win an argument and not be wrong about something you are trying to equate thing for another. If you can embed the TSD video at the exact time that they are doing the TKD foot hop I would appreciate it because I must have missed it.

Punches are also barely used.

Now this is TRUE! You are right about that! Regardless of the reasons why fact is it's true.

The second video, the Shotokan one, their weight is more spread equally on both legs and actually there is more weight put on the front leg as opposed to the rear leg like 60% weight on the front leg with the leg slightly bent and 40% on the back leg which is more straight than the front one.

Again, I think you are pinpointing split second instances (like your side kick observation) and trying to make it seem like it is what you will see in 90% or more of the sparring matches. They BOTH are standing 50/50 on their legs. You will notice a shift in the weight distribution of the TSD guys when they are attempting side kicks with their front leg. Outside of those attempts they are 50/50 just like the Shotokan guys AND FOR THE SAME REASON....and that is to be ready for offense or defense JUST LIKE THE SHOTOKAN GUYS. If you are going to try to use a front leg side kick (or roundhouse kick for that matter) OF COURSE you will shift most of your weight to your rear leg a split second before executing it. Just go to 1:22 of the Shotokan video and tell me what the guy in the red belt does before he executes a kick with his front leg.

Their stance is also not completely a side stance and they're more facing the opponent.

Are you freakin' serious??!! What the heck are you looking at? Both sparring styles give points for strikes to the body. As you correctly pointed out the TSD guys use the front leg side kick more than the Shotokan guys whereas the Shotokan guys use their hands more. But BOTH styles stand with the side on stances to protect their midsections and try to avoid getting scored on. The Shotokan guys will shift their hips forward a split second before attempting gyaku tsuki. That's what I see. But even the TSD guys do the same thing for the same reason. Just look at the bigger kid in the second fight of the TSD video. He did it quite often.

Side kicks are barely used, and instead they rely more on circular kicks (mawashi geri), and gyaku tsuki with the occasional mae geri especially used as a faint.

I agree with this. I think you're right. No argument from me.

Their front hand is slightly higher than their back hand and the back hand is chambered ready to counter with a gyaku tsuki.

I see zero difference in their back hands from the TSD guys. Their (the Shotokan guys) hands are not strictly and completely chambered in the gyaku tsuki chamber any more than the TSD guys. Quit making stuff up dude.

Is is really that difficult to see the difference?

Yes it is since I am not attempting to find something that isn't there as you are doing. You're reaching quite hard.

You're trying to make this personal by holding grudges, posting old threads, and trying to discredit everything I'm posting.

I don't even know you, nor do I care to know you, so why on earth would I have a personal grudge against you? THIS IS A FORUM ON THE INTERNET!! I take NOTHING personally over the internet from people I do not know nor mean nothing to me. I have no reason to be "personal" with you. Again, this is the internet. You should either grow some thick skin or stay off the net dude. I posted that link to remind you that I know the personality type you have and what to expect from you in our "internet discussions". Like it or don't like it, fact is I see you but you don't see me. I'll leave it to you to figure that out if you have the maturity to do so. ;)

You're pathetic. The simple fact you can't tell the difference between the 2 videos you posted says enough about your actual knowledge.

So I wonder who's the one that's butthurt now. :cool:
 
I have no reason to be "personal" with you.
(....)
I know the personality type you have and what to expect from you in our "internet discussions". Like it or don't like it, fact is I see you but you don't see me. I'll leave it to you to figure that out if you have the maturity to do so. ;)

So I wonder who's the one that's butthurt now. :cool:
@AshiharaFan - I'd call the above "being personal". I think it would be best not to continue. I thought you agreed to disagree so everyone can move on?

I do sincerely apologize. I agree to disagree so everyone can move on.
 
Something I meant add in my last post are the following thoughts:

It's undeniable and provable that TSD not only comes from Shotokan but copied it's syllabus in almost it's entirety. Whether a person wants to acknowledge this or not or refuses to research it themselves or not does not change the facts.

TSD and Shotokan each do point sparring but with some minor differences in how points are scored. I can guarantee you that a TSD stylist can easily enter a Shotokan tournament and adapt to them with no problem and vice-versa. But can either of them easily adapt to a knockdown rules tournament? Can a knockdown stylist easily adapt to point sparring? And by easily I mean that they can enter a tournament on two days notice and be okay with adapting to the tournamant's style of sparring. A Shotokan and TSD stylist being able to easily enter and adapt to one another's sparring style and tournament structure says a lot about the similarities between the two styles just like IKO1 Kyokushin guys adapting to Shinkyokushin or World Oyama or Seidokaikan or Enshin says a lot about the similarities between those styles.

I think Hotora86 is correct when he said it may vary from country to country and club to club, but I also know that the so-called differences and similarities between the sparring styles of TSD and Shotokan as seen in the two videos have just as much to do with the individuals' personal sparring style as much as the practiced style in general. That's why I say I detect similarities and why Tay says he detects differences.

I have no problem with agreeing to disagree. But that TSD is a carbon copy of Shotokan is not mine or anyone else opinion; it's actual fact that is common knowledge and available to all for further research and study.
 
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OMG guys! 24hrs away and I'm exhausted by the quantity of content.

I thought it was common knowledge that the Japanese occupation of Korea and immigration of nationals between the two countries established the Korean martial arts?

I'll use Hapkido as an example I'm familiar with...

The Korean national team looks like TKD and throws combined, if you dig a little deeper the old school Hapkido is identical to Daito Ryu Jujitsu because the Hapkido founder trained under Takeda Sensei.

U R BOTH RIGHT BECAUSE 1 OF U IS LOOKING AT THE ORIGIN OF TSD AND 1 OF U IS LOOKING AT TSD'S EVOLUTION!

Sry for yelling kids...

But get off the thread and train!

Peace
 
@AshiharaFan - I'd call the above "being personal". I think it would be best not to continue. I thought you agreed to disagree so everyone can move on?

Okay, I'll stop responding to him. But YOU DO KNOW that he's going to continue this and post something to bait me to keep it going. Would it not be fair to implore him to also cease and desist? And I do want to reiterate that I have nothing personal against Tay or anyone else on these forums. None of us know each other and I don't take internet exchanges to heart like a lot of other people do. It's just the internet and I can only feel sad for anyone who takes anything said by someone they don't personally know seriously or personally.
 
OMG guys! 24hrs away and I'm exhausted by the quantity of content.

I thought it was common knowledge that the Japanese occupation of Korea and immigration of nationals between the two countries established the Korean martial arts?

I'll use Hapkido as an example I'm familiar with...

The Korean national team looks like TKD and throws combined, if you dig a little deeper the old school Hapkido is identical to Daito Ryu Jujitsu because the Hapkido founder trained under Takeda Sensei.

U R BOTH RIGHT BECAUSE 1 OF U IS LOOKING AT THE ORIGIN OF TSD AND 1 OF U IS LOOKING AT TSD'S EVOLUTION!

Sry for yelling kids...

But get off the thread and train!

Peace

Yeah, you guys HAVE MY WORD that I will not respond to him any further. It's a shame that two adults cannot discuss something that they love and are both passionate about without it turning into some sort of war. Because this isn't the first time that this has happened with us two I realize that it would be best if he and I refrain from interaction in general no matter what the topic is. It's sad it has to be that way (since we're both grown men) but I guess it's better than it degrading to this level again.

@Tayski I apologize to you for my part in this and for having offended you and you don't have to worry about me saying anything else towards you or about you.

PEACE TO EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD.
 
Okay, I'll stop responding to him. But YOU DO KNOW that he's going to continue this and post something to bait me to keep it going. Would it not be fair to implore him to also cease and desist? And I do want to reiterate that I have nothing personal against Tay or anyone else on these forums. None of us know each other and I don't take internet exchanges to heart like a lot of other people do. It's just the internet and I can only feel sad for anyone who takes anything said by someone they don't personally know seriously or personally.
LOL, that's what happens when U turn into old Pappy CF, Haha!

U both r right just looking at different perspectives.

P.S. U both have a shitload of IQ so keep sharing and understanding that pesky perspective thing...

Don't worry, b happy!

OT6Dj.gif


LOL!
 
P.S. U both have a shitload of IQ so keep sharing and understanding that pesky perspective thing...

LOL, thanks but I don't think I have a shitload of IQ. It may only appear so if I so happen to know quite a bit about one thing. The way I see it we are all ignorant, just on different things.
 
If I didn't know the listed fighters had a karate black belt in common could I tell by watching them fight? What is a trademark of a karate fighter in mma?
 
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